390 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ******************************************* 10 11 AMERICAN DAIRY GOAT ASSOCIATION 12 OCTOBER 30, 2003 13 BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING 14 15 ******************************************** 16 17 18 19 20 Taken before Anna L. Renken, a Certified 21 Shorthand Reporter in Travis County for the State 22 of Texas, on the 30th day of October, 2003, 23 between the hours of 8:01 a.m. and 7:25 o'clock 24 p.m. at the ADGA ANNUAL MEETING, Airport Marriott 25 Convention Center, Nashville, Tennessee. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 391 1 I N D E X 2 Page 3 COMMITTEE REPORTS (CONTINUED) 4 National Show Long Range ---------------- 397 5 6 Shows ----------------------------------- 430 (Action on Show Complaints: pp. 431; 7 432, two actions; 433, two actions; 434, two actions; 435, two actions; 8 436, 441, 459) 9 (Action, Rule Refinement: pp. 460, 467, 519, 520) 10 (Directives: pp. 505, 524) 11 12 Constitution & Bylaws -------------------- 525 (Action pp. 560; 561, two actions;. 13 574, 575, 619, 630) 14 (Directives: pp. 580, 642) 15 Government Liaison ---------------------- 646 16 (Action taken: pp. 658) 17 Registration ---------------------------- 665 18 (Action taken: 689, 690, 699, 700, 705, 735, 764, 766, 767, 19 775, 777, 778, 783, 784, 785, 788, 792, 796, 806, 809) 20 (Motion to reconsider: pp. 753, 773) 21 (Motion to refer: pp. 771) 22 23 Youth Activities ------------------------ 809 24 25 Judges ---------------------------------- 811 ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 392 1 I N D E X 2 3 (COMMITTEE REPORTERS CONTINUED) 4 5 Products ------------------------------ 811 (Action taken: pp. 818, two actions) 6 7 Trade Arbitration --------------------- 819 8 9 Scholarships -------------------------- 820 10 (Action taken: pp. 822) 11 12 Publicity, Promotions & Educational Material------------------- 823 13 (Action taken: pp. 825, 826, 835) 14 (Directive: pp. 827) 15 16 Advanced Judges Training (Action Re: Conflict 17 with Board Meeting) ------------------- 338 18 19 Production Testing ----------------------- 838 (Action taken: pp. 842; 843, two 20 actions; 846, 849, 850) 21 (Directive: pp. 852) 22 23 History ---------------------------------- 853 (Action taken: pp. 863) 24 25 ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 393 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: This is our 2 Thursday session. We have a lot of work to do 3 today; but it's all well organized, and we're 4 bright and we will do it quickly. And you have 5 some of your challenges early in the day, so 6 hopefully that will help us get through them. 7 Anna Renken has been with us about five 8 years I've found; and she has been really a find 9 for us. I just wanted to state that this board 10 appreciates that we can count on this lady. She 11 knows us. She knows what we're doing. And you 12 are appreciated. 13 (APPLAUSE.) 14 MS. RENKEN: It's an honor to 15 serve you. I appreciate that compliment. Thank 16 you. 17 MS. CAMPBELL: Write that down. 18 (LAUGHTER.) 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 20 Steven has discussion for you that is very brief. 21 MR. STEVEN CONSIDINE: As some of 22 you know, I've found a new passion in life, which 23 is knitting. During the past several months I was 24 knitting a gift to give Vivian which Kristi is 25 holding up which is a Fairways shoulder shawl, an ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 394 1 antique lace pattern, 50 percent silk, 50 percent 2 wool. And Robin is handing around -- and I was 3 going to give it to her this week privately. But 4 since Vivian can't be with us, Robin is handing 5 around some blank note cards and would like for 6 each of you if you are interested to just write a 7 brief note to Vivian saying how you miss her and 8 you wish she were here. And after convention I 9 will mail the card to Vivian with the shawl as a 10 gift of remembrance from the board. 11 (APPLAUSE.) 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The first 13 order of business, we need to do the roll call. 14 Shirley, let's do the roll call. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 16 MR. ALTHEIDE: Here. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 18 MS. ANDERSON: Here. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 20 MR. BITTER: Here. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 22 MS. BOZZO: Here. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 24 MS. BRYAN: Here. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 395 1 MR. BURKS: Here. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 3 MS. CAMPBELL: Present. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 5 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Here. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Here. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 9 MR. CONSIDINE: Here. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 11 MR. DAUBERT: Here. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 13 MS. DEAN: Here. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 15 MR. GODDARD: Here. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Here. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 19 MS. HENDRICKSON: Here. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 21 MS. MAZE: Here. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 23 MS. MORFORD: Here. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 25 MR. PAGE: Here. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 396 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 2 MS. PETERSEN: Here. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 4 MS. REYNA: Here. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 6 DR. DEAN ROWE: Here. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 8 MS. SANKEY: Here. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 10 MS. SAUM: Here. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 12 MS. SENN: Here. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 14 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Here. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 16 MR. PETE SNYDER: Here. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 18 MS. STRICKLAND: Here. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 20 MS. WEAVER: Here. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Lelia Berry. 22 MS. BERRY: Here. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Sally Callahan. 24 MS. CALLAHAN: Here. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Bob Cassette. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 397 1 MR. ROBERT CASSETTE: Here. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: And Sheila Nixon. 3 MS. NIXON: Here. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The item 5 that was planned for first thing this morning will 6 be first. That's National Show Long Range. Then 7 we will go to the Show Committee report and after 8 that the Constitution report. So we do have some 9 work to do this morning. Charlotte. 10 MS. SANKEY: You have the report 11 before you. We did work with the group in 12 Spokane, Washington on their bid for 2005 and did 13 review the proposed bid. Suggestions were made 14 regarding pens, also a few other cleanup items 15 which we needed; and we made that request, and 16 they did return that information to us prior to 17 convention. 18 We also worked on a guidebook. And this is a 19 work in progress. You should all have a copy of 20 it, because there was a lot of comments coming; 21 but there was nothing to really go by. There was 22 a list of things, but nothing to go by. Dave 23 Daubert had put together some information that he 24 sent to the office following the Minnesota 25 National Show, so that has been included, because ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 398 1 there was a lot of items in there that we felt 2 might be helpful, we felt, the committee felt 3 might be helpful for future National Shows. So 4 this is a guidebook. It is a work in progress. 5 We plan to or the committee should plan to add to 6 it in future years. 7 We are generally when this time for the 8 year-end report was due we did not have the final 9 proposal from Spokane, nor did I have any of the 10 final proposals from any other host groups. There 11 was some talk of Colorado. I think there was a 12 little confusion there. They felt that they had 13 presented last year for 2005 or sometime in the 14 future not realizing that it was not accepted. 15 If it's not accepted for a specific year, 16 you do have to come back the following year with 17 your proposal again perhaps for another year you 18 have in mind if you're given, you know, direction 19 to come back. So we regrettably don't have any 20 concrete information from of the Colorado group; 21 but we certainly would love to see them come 22 forward next year with a completed proposal as 23 well as any other groups. We know from those of 24 us who went to the Nationals in Colorado in Pueblo 25 it was a great show. So I'm encouraging them to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 399 1 come back with a complete proposal. 2 At this time I would like to introduce two 3 people from Spokane, Cheryl Johnston. She is a 4 representative from the Spokane Convention Bureau, 5 and Lisa Bracco. She is the marketing event 6 manager with the Spokane County Fair & Expo 7 Center; and they would like to give you a little 8 information about Spokane. 9 (Applause.) 10 MS. SANKEY: I've been corrected 11 it's Spokane. 12 MS. OSBORN: I'm going to say a 13 couple of words first before Cheryl and Lisa get 14 started. First of all, we'd like to say thank you 15 for allowing us to give this presentation this 16 morning for the 2005 Spokane National Show bid. 17 My name is Michele Osborn. I'm here with my 18 co-chairs, Debbie Patnode and Pamela Haney along 19 with Cheryl Johnston. Cheryl Johnston and Lisa 20 Bracco are here from the Spokane Fair, Expo & 21 Convention Visitor's Bureau. 22 Our group, West Coast National Association was 23 formed specifically for the purpose of pulling 24 together a complete and comprehensive West Coast 25 states National Show bid. We have put many months ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 400 1 and hours into this bid. And as you will see, 2 it's an undertaking we didn't take lightly. Our 3 research has been thorough, our support has been 4 overwhelming in many different attributes, and our 5 tenacity has been tested many times on this whole 6 bid. We are now down to the final presentation; 7 and I will say this has been an amazing and very 8 good learning experience for us all. The support 9 of the hosting committee in Spokane Washington has 10 been beyond compare. The city has gone above and 11 beyond anything we've asked of them; and they've 12 all done it with a smile. 13 I'm going to pass the spotlight on now to 14 Cheryl and Lisa. These two ladies will take you 15 through a quick overview of the bid site, the 16 facilities, the accommodations, et cetera. We 17 will be available to answer any questions after 18 the presentation; and I will now pass it over to 19 Cheryl. 20 (Applause.) 21 MS. JOHNSTON: Thank you. Good 22 morning, everyone. Again, I'm Cheryl Johnston 23 with the Spokane Regional Convention & Visitors 24 Bureau; and I want to give you a special thank you 25 today for allowing us the opportunity to come to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 401 1 Nashville and present Spokane to you, to the 2 American Dairy Goat Association. And we just are 3 very, very excited about the opportunity about 4 hosting your National Show in 2005. Spokane just 5 really really embraces a large event such as 6 yours; and we would just really go out of our way 7 to try and make each one of your attendees feel 8 welcome and comfortable in our region and just 9 make sure that your event is a terrific success. 10 So I'm going to just give you a brief overview 11 on Spokane. I'm not sure how familiar some of you 12 are with the area, if you've ever been there or 13 not; but I'm just going to kind of give you a 14 little snapshot of the area so you'll kind of know 15 where we're at and what you can do when you get 16 there. 17 We are located in the Northwest. We sit on 18 the sunny eastern side of Washington state. We're 19 about 17 miles from on the Idaho border and about 20 90 miles from the Canadian border; and we are the 21 largest city in between Minneapolis and Calgary 22 and Salt Lake. 23 We truly serve as a regional hub for a 24 36-county region. We serve, we have a large 25 hospital industry and different services, and all ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 402 1 those folks come to Spokane for their shopping and 2 retail entertainment and those type of things. 3 This map kind of gives you a good snapshot of 4 where we are located geographically. And the 5 Spokane population is roughly half a million 6 people right now; and we have a great four-season 7 climate in Spokane, and we're really known for our 8 natural beauty. We have lush pine forests, and we 9 have the Spokane River which runs through the 10 middle of the region from Lake Coeur d' Alene all 11 the way through the city; and we have beautiful 12 flowers in the spring once we get that snow 13 run-off, and it's a beautiful time of year to 14 visit us in late spring or early summer. And we 15 have 75 lakes within a 50-mile radius. And we're 16 just really very friendly northwest people, and we 17 welcome families and have very great family value 18 entertainment. 19 As far weather we think that the dairy 20 goats along with your attendees would really enjoy 21 or summer weather. We have average July 22 temperatures of about 82 degrees with average lows 23 in the mid 50s, very little, if any, precipitation 24 and very low humidity. So it's very, very 25 comfortable in the summer months in Spokane. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 403 1 As far as accessibility to the region, we have 2 the Spokane International Airport. It is about 20 3 minutes from the Fair & Expo Center. We have 11 4 major airlines. We are basically one stop away 5 from a major hub cities all across the United 6 States; and we have 40 daily departures to Seattle 7 and Portland. And there is a map that kind of 8 gives you an idea of our accessibility. And of 9 course, we are also serviced by Amtrak train 10 service, Greyhound Bus Service; and a lot of our 11 hotels offer complimentary shuttling to the 12 Amtrak, bus station and our Spokane International 13 Airport. So we're very convenient. Of course, we 14 have highway access through Interstate 90. 15 Let me say a little bit about our attractions. 16 This is a beautiful riverfront park which is 17 located in the heart of downtown. It's a 100-acre 18 park, the site of the Expo '74 World's Fair; and 19 we have the historic area, Imax theatre, rides, 20 all kinds of things (indicating). And then, let's 21 see, in Spokane in Riverfront Park we have what is 22 call the Centennial Trail; and it's a 35-mile 23 trail that you can bike, rollerblade, walk. And 24 you can go all the way to Lake Coeur d' Alene. 25 It's beautiful, beautiful scenery in the park ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 404 1 there. 2 Here is one of our botanical gardens and a 3 Japanese garden. And there's a view of the 4 Centennial Trail that I mentioned; and it's 5 beautiful scenery all along the trail there 6 (indicating). 7 We are known for our wineries in the state 8 of Washington; and we have eight wonderful 9 wineries in the Spokane area. This one is called 10 Arborcrest; and it sits on a bluff in the Spokane 11 Valley and overlooks that region, and it's very 12 very beautiful. 13 We have outstanding golf courses. If you 14 like to golf, Spokane would be the place to go. 15 We've been written up in National Golf Digest. We 16 have some of the top 10 municipal courses in the 17 United States and greens fees less than $25 18 dollars for 18 holes, so it's a pretty nice 19 feature there. 20 As far as lakes, like I mentioned earlier, 75 21 lakes within a 50-mile radius gives you a lot of 22 different recreation opportunities to play on the 23 water. And this is a picture of Lake Coeur d' 24 Alene which is one of the top 10 most beautiful 25 lakes in the world; and that's about a 30-minute ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 405 1 drive from Spokane. There is Diamond Lake, and we 2 have a few different museums in Spokane. This is 3 our newest one, the Northwest Museum of Arts & 4 Culture; and it has one of the largest collections 5 of Plateau Native American Indian exhibits 6 (indicating). And they are constantly changing 7 the exhibits; and we also have a children's museum 8 as well. So a lot of different options there. 9 And as far as shopping and restaurants your 10 choices are plentiful. We have everything as far 11 as restaurants from fast food to fine dining and 12 some of the best restaurants that we're very, very 13 proud of. 14 As far as shopping, we have three major 15 shopping centers in the Spokane region, the 16 Spokane Valley Mall which will be located next to 17 your headquarter hotel. We also have Village Park 18 Square Uptown Mall. We have shops ranging 19 everything from Nordstrom's to Party Barn to 20 Macy's to Restoration Hardware, so a lot of really 21 great stores in Spokane and a lot of unique 22 boutique things too that are really indicative to 23 the Northwest. 24 And let me tell you about your host hotel. 25 The Marabou Park Hotel, formerly the Doubletree ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 406 1 Hotel Spokane Valley, this property was just 2 recently purchased by some new owners; and it's 3 very exciting. They actually have already begun 4 renovation; and in the next 18 months will be 5 pouring several million dollars into that 6 property. This hotel sits about 10 minutes from 7 the Fair & Expo Center, the host facility; and 8 it's right off of Interstate 90, very easy access. 9 And the Spokane Valley Mall is less than half a 10 mile away. A WalMart is right behind this hotel. 11 A lot of fast food restaurants, Jack In The Box, 12 McDonald's, a whole variety within walking 13 distance of the hotel, which is a nice feature. 14 They have 236 guest rooms. They're very 15 nice. They're larger than industry standard guest 16 rooms. 175 of those rooms are blacked out for the 17 American Dairy Goat Association at a very special 18 rate which includes complimentary breakfast each 19 morning, and an oversized parking lot with 500 20 spaces. That will be nice to have for extra 21 parking of trucks and trailers; and they have a 22 beautiful outdoor pool and an on-site restaurant 23 and lounge. 24 And if you're not going to stay at the host 25 hotel, we have plenty of options for you, I ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 407 1 promise. And we have in fact over 6800 sleeping 2 rooms within the Spokane region and ranging from 3 limited service properties that I'm sure many of 4 you are aware of all the way to a four-diamond 5 hotel. So we just really have a lot of great 6 accommodations that just, you know, fit everyone's 7 needs. 8 And if you would like to camp or bring your 9 RV, then we have plenty of RV sites and hookups 10 within the Spokane region all within 15 to 20 11 minutes of the Fair & Expo Center. So we 12 definitely have your accommodations covered. 13 There are a lot of great fun places to stay. 14 And just as a wrap up, I just want to tell 15 you once again that Spokane is a beautiful, 16 beautiful place. We hope that we can welcome you 17 there in 2005; and we are sure that there will be 18 something there that will please everybody's 19 tastes and interest. Thank you once again for the 20 opportunity; and I'm going to turn it over to Lisa 21 Bracco. 22 (Applause.) 23 MS. BRACCO: Good morning. As 24 Cheryl said, my name is Lisa Bracco. I'm the 25 marketing and event manager for the Spokane County ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 408 1 Fair & Expo Center; and I'm going to go through 2 the facilities that are listed in the bid, kind of 3 go over the buildings, pens, that sort of thing. 4 Right here we have listed in the first page was 5 one of our huge bay buildings which is not in the 6 bid; but if you need room to expand, there are 7 three large bay buildings. It's from 15,000 8 square feet up to 35,000 square feet. 9 Right now let me give you an overview of 10 the facility. And there is a map in your bid book 11 if you want to look at that. Most of the bid is 12 in the north part of our facility. We have 97 13 acres which include 16 buildings. We have 134,000 14 square feet of exhibit space. We have 278,000 15 square feet of lawn area. We have four different 16 lawn areas with trees, some flat, some areas with 17 non trees; and all of the lawn areas can be used 18 for camping whether it's electrical, water or dry 19 camping. 20 We have four different arenas with our -- 21 that is including our new grandstand which is, can 22 fit about 5100 people. It was just built this 23 summer, so that's a great addition to our 24 facility. We also have 199 permanent horse 25 stalls. 96 of these were built three years ago. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 409 1 We have on-site food concessions. We're in the 2 process of building a new food row which will be 3 eight new food vendors. We have four food vendors 4 in our grandstand. We do bring in as many 5 portable food vending options for you. So 6 depending on how many attendees you have we'll 7 make sure that you have food from the time you 8 wake up in the morning until the time you leave. 9 Food is important to me, so I am assuming that it 10 is important to you. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MS. BRACCO: We also have 24-hour 13 access to all of our security people and also 14 full-time staff, so you can get a hold of them 24 15 hours a day no matter what you need during your 16 event. 17 Right here we have what we call our 18 agricultural complex. We have Ag A, Ag B in the 19 middle part, Ag C, and Ag D is located directly 20 north behind. In Ag A we have preliminary setup 21 that you could do your Wine & Cheese in there or 22 your dinners in there. Ag B which is located 23 right here we can have our vendors in there. And 24 Ag C and Ag D both will have the pen areas. And 25 as you can see, we preliminarily looked at about ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 410 1 600 pens in just Ag C and Ag D. The total square 2 footage of the Ag buildings is 51,108 square feet. 3 This is a multipurpose barn in your bid 4 (indicating). This is actually a picture of a 5 interstate fair where they actually put the show 6 area. Your show area wold be listed in a 7 different area. We have 42,500 square feet of 8 space in the different three barn buildings 9 totaling almost 1,000 pens in that area; but as 10 you can see, most of the barns are very open and 11 very wide. We have done a lot of renovation over 12 the last three years with each of the barns. 13 Here is two pictures of our stalls 14 (indicating). This is a picture of our new stalls 15 built three years ago; and this is an older set of 16 stalls that we keep remodeling and bringing up to 17 date. So as you can see, our stalls are very new 18 even though the facility has been there for over 19 50 years. 20 We have a total 199 stalls; and most of the 21 stalls are 10 x 10s and two 10 x 12s. So you can 22 get depending on how many obviously, you know, 23 three to five goats in each of the stalls. This 24 is our new covered show area. It ranges about 25 83 x 150 feet. As you can see, it has different ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 411 1 panels here. You can expand the area out. And I 2 believe that Michele has looked at doing the milk 3 out area in here. We can also put extra pens in 4 this area if you need some place to hold goats 5 while you do the milk out (indicating). 6 This is our indoor arena which will be your 7 show area (indicating). On the left side you 8 don't see a picture of it; but we have a cemented 9 area that we can put about 45 holding pens before 10 your show. We can also fit vendors in here. We 11 have six roll-up doors, so in the summertime the 12 ventilation is really good. We have the steer and 13 the cattle in here during the fair. The arena 14 down here is 95 x 250 feet. This can also be made 15 into two show areas if need be. 16 This picture was actually taken at the 17 second level of the indoor arena from our 18 announcer stand (indicating). We have two 19 announcer's areas, one on the main level and one 20 up above. We also have two offices in this 21 building. We have restrooms, and we also have 22 showers in this area. 23 These are our different lawn and camping 24 areas (indicating). This is our south lawn area, 25 and this is also our south lawn area. As you will ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 412 1 see, in the background there is electrical and 2 water in these areas. And then this is our 3 camping, actual camping area that we keep 4 upgrading every year. That was actually built 5 about two years ago, so we keep upgrading it. 6 There is 110 and there is 220. There's 42 spaces 7 right in this area; and then over to the left here 8 we have eight larger RV sites that have four more 9 larger RVs that you have air conditioning and that 10 sort of thing, so they have more electrical in 11 there. 12 To the left of this is a large area here. 13 We bring in electrical boxes so you can expand 14 your camping. We do have dry camping. We also 15 have community water in this area over here. You 16 can also do camping on most of this facility, 17 which means you can do over 200 camping 18 facilities. We have a junior livestock show. 19 They bring about 500. So we have a lot of options 20 here. 21 These are two pictures of our Interstate 22 Fair. You can see the new stalls that I mentioned 23 before that have 96 stalls here. This is one of 24 our tents that we actually put the goats in during 25 the fair. And also you can put extra goats that ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 413 1 are being shown in this area. 2 This building here is Multipurpose Barn C 3 which we actually call the "goat barn" during 4 fair. This is the horse arena here. And as you 5 can see, in the background back here we have ample 6 parking for trailers and trucks. We have a 7 parking lot that fits over 2000 people, so you 8 will have no problem with parking. This picture 9 here, right here is the indoor arena which is the 10 show arena. We have our north lawn area right 11 here. We have a north lawn pavilion, so there's a 12 lot of places you can picnic or eat during the 13 show. 14 In the background here we have our new 15 grandstands. As I said earlier, it fits about 16 5100 people. So you can expand if you need to 17 expand your show. A couple of other things I'd 18 like to mention is that we're actually going 19 through a remodel to build a new bay building 20 which is going to be about 20,000 square feet. We 21 are remodeling some of the lawn area and we're 22 moving Food Row. So all of the stuff when you get 23 there you'll have a new Food Row area. You'll 24 have an extra four buildings instead of just three 25 if you need to expand your event. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 414 1 We're also in the process of making sure 2 that all the multipurpose barns have upgraded 3 electrical so when you have your milking machines 4 and you have your fans going you won't have any 5 problems with electrical. 6 Also I'd like to address milk disposal 7 because I had called the City and the County to 8 make sure this all went through, because I know 9 there have been some issues in the past; but I 10 talked to both of them, and they said that that 11 should be no problem. We're going to make a 12 device that combines the water and the dairy goat 13 milk together so it goes down the sewer fine. So 14 I have my facility maintenance manager working on 15 that right now. He thought that was pretty 16 interesting to host the American Diary Goat 17 Association, so we're really excited. 18 And also I'd just like to mention as far as 19 the bid goes when I put out a bid the bid prices 20 stay the same. They won't differ from what they 21 are on the bid. We have more buildings that you 22 can expand into. All the prices on the bid will 23 stay the same as far as the milk disposal, manure 24 haul-off -- that sort of thing, they all stay the 25 same. So I'd just like to say thank you for ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 415 1 letting us present today; and we'll hopefully see 2 you in Spokane in 2005. 3 (Applause.) 4 MS. OSBORN: Once again, we'd like 5 to say thank you for giving us this opportunity to 6 present our bid to you. In the last letter we 7 sent out to Long Range on October 5th we addressed 8 any issues that the committee felt that we needed 9 to go over and work out. We restated several 10 areas we had covered in our preview bid, and then 11 we went ahead. And if you go to the back of your 12 bid proposal, you'll find the updated letter that 13 we did send out. So if you have any questions, 14 this will answer many of your questions also. 15 We have been working on some preliminary 16 fundraising. We have a combined total of 17 approximately $15,000 to date. This figure 18 combines our on-line auction, our building 19 sponsorship and also a donation of complimentary 20 rooms from the hosting hotel. Our fundraising 21 talents are well-known throughout the United 22 States, I think. I'm confident with the amount of 23 support we've had we can meet and exceed the goals 24 we have set for ourselves for fundraising for the 25 money that we would like to provide towards events ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 416 1 for the show. 2 Our last item we would like to address is 3 the hosting hotel. The Doubletree, as she said, 4 is now the Marabou Park Hotel. We have met with 5 Judy Marek, the senior event hotel manager; and 6 she reassured us the promises will remain the same 7 for the group. They won't change. She has 8 graciously written an update letter which most of 9 you should have in your binder. In the ones that 10 we've already passed out you should have an update 11 letter sitting there. It's included in the 12 facilities section if you want to look that up. 13 We'd love to answer any questions for more 14 information. All the information is in there; but 15 we're willing to take questions. We'd like to end 16 this presentation with a showcase offering of our 17 Northwest and West Coast hospitality; and they're 18 bringing around bags for you. If you will note, 19 there is a list of producers on the side of each 20 bag. Take a moment and read through our list of 21 supporters. They have been wonderful. Our 22 support has been overwhelming. Thank you for your 23 time, and we look forward to the opportunity to 24 hopefully host the 2005 National Show. 25 (Applause.) ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 417 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: If you have 2 questions that Charlotte can answer, she obviously 3 is the committee chair with Patty to look at this. 4 Bozzo. 5 MS. BOZZO: I just would like to 6 know what is the length of travel from horse stall 7 C to the indoor arena. And I'm having trouble 8 understanding exactly how many pens total are 9 available, total. 10 MS. OSBORN: We've done a pen 11 count, a preliminary pen count. Right now we have 12 over 1,000 pens available. So we've done a 13 conservative figure of 1,000 pens. We can get as 14 many pens as we need. Lisa has contacted the 15 Coeur d' Alene fairgrounds, all the surrounding 16 fairgrounds. We can get as many pens as we need 17 for that. I think she has contacted some of the 18 local feed stores that have also said they will 19 donate panels and anything else that we need to 20 help, you know, make whatever pen size and 21 whatever pen availability we're going to have to 22 have. And if we need to have 2000 pens, we will 23 have 2000 pens on site. So we contacted Coeur d' 24 Alene and fairgrounds and several of the different 25 said they'd rent them, so I think we are covered ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 418 1 for well over 2000 pens. 2 And also Kristi wanted to know about the 3 Horse Stall C, which is the furthest building, the 4 brand new Horse Stall C. It's the furthest away 5 from the livestock arena which is where we will be 6 showing. It is 538 feet. This is a very, very 7 compact fairground, very well layed out. It's 8 very user friendly; but it's very, very close. 9 You walk out one barn, and you're about, you know, 10 from here to there to the next barn (indicating). 11 It's very well thought out and very well laid out. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Snyder. 13 MS. HELEN SNYDER: I know we've 14 discussed this before, and please refresh my 15 memory. The $500 retainer, does that cover the 16 vet check-in, or is that just the retainer to have 17 them there? 18 MS. OSBORN: We've talked to and 19 got a letter. I thought this was in there. I'm 20 sorry. I apologize for that. We have talked to a 21 vet in Washington who has agreed for $500 he will 22 be there for I think the preliminary check-in for 23 Friday for Host or Show Committee and for Saturday 24 he will be there; and that's the $500. That's for 25 his fee. He will bring a vet tech with him. And ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 419 1 we are still working on getting more vets 2 available. We've had a real problem with them 3 committing to two years in advance. They've said 4 "Yes, we will be here; but we can't commit that 5 far in advance. 6 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Helen. 7 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Do you have any 8 idea how much that is going to cost for the vet 9 check-in? We absolutely cannot do it with just 10 one vet. 11 MS. OSBORN: We know that. 12 Actually he said he will be there on-site and 13 available also all week if we would like him 14 there. That's something our host committee is 15 working on to be able to pay for. We've got, 16 we've been in contact with WSU to get more vet 17 tech students and also the head of their vet 18 program. We have contacted a couple more in 19 Spokane, and we're working on getting that donated 20 at this time so we won't have the cost to ADGA for 21 that. We don't have any solid costs right now 22 just because we cannot get anybody to commit two 23 years in advance. They've said that is just too 24 far in advance for vet students, for vets. They 25 will have them available; but they just can't ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 420 1 commit that far in advance. 2 MS. BRACCO: I'd also like to 3 mention that we have a veterinarian on our board 4 of directors; and she has talked to the other 5 veterinarians in the area. And like Michele said, 6 they're aware that if we get this bid, they need 7 to commit to it. So she is very excited about it 8 and she'll help in any way. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Daubert. 10 MS. JOHNSTON: I just wanted to ad 11 just one more comment too. 12 MS. BOZZO: State your name for 13 the reporter. 14 MS. JOHNSTON: I'm Cheryl Johnston 15 with the Spokane Convention & Visitors Bureau. I 16 also wanted to state that our Spokane Chamber of 17 Commerce we have an Ag Bureau Division of the 18 Chamber; and they work specifically with 19 agricultural groups in trying to assist in 20 different events that happen at the Fair & Expo 21 Center and any other areas that we have. And I 22 know that they are very committed in helping find 23 resources such as that and working with you and 24 FFA, 4-H groups and veterinarians and getting 25 volunteers and all the necessary support. I also ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 421 1 wanted to mention to you that they've got 2 resources available. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Now Dave 4 Daubert. 5 MR. DAUBERT: Two questions: What 6 does a llama panel look like? I don't know what 7 it looks like. And second, there is a note here 8 that 400 more pens are available. What building 9 would they go in? 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do you have 11 something there that would help answer that? 12 Donna Anderson has some information on this. 13 Panels? 14 MS. ANDERSON: You were in llama 15 panels in Spokane. Those were llama panels. 16 MS. OSBORN: Right. The llama 17 panels are about I think they're 8 x 8, so 18 they're -- 19 (Panel displayed in Powerpoint by 20 assistant.) 21 MR. OSBORN: Those are actually 22 the goat panels (indicating). I don't know if we 23 have any in our Powerpoint. They are taller. 24 They come to about here; and the goat panels come 25 about here and the llama panels to about here ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 422 1 (indicating). I hope that helps. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Other 3 questions? Cassette. 4 MR. DAUBERT: The other questions? 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I thought 6 she answered both. All right. 7 MR. DAUBERT: The 400 pens. 8 MS. BOZZO: If we needed to put 9 more panels in there or pens, we can move into 10 Ag B and Ag D; and in the bid I believe Ag C is 11 not in the bid. And so we have Ag C, Ag B and 12 Ag D. So we can move the vendors, the Wine & 13 Cheese and the dinner to one of our bay buildings 14 and put the pens in there. 15 There is also the option or renting a tent if 16 need be. We work with a company that provides 17 tents, so there are some option there. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Cassette. 19 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: I guess my 20 question, and it may be in there, and I just 21 haven't had an opportunity to read through all of 22 this; but dealing with actual the PA system within 23 the facility and a separate one used to just 24 control the, available at the ring as opposed to 25 the whole barn, also the ability to page from an ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 423 1 office working setup, is that included in these 2 fees, or would that be in addition to what is 3 here? 4 MS. BRACCO: No. That is 5 included. We do have a PA system that goes 6 through the agricultural complex that goes through 7 the whole grounds. We do have a PA system where 8 you can announce just in the indoor arena and one 9 that you can announce in the indoor and outdoor. 10 You can also cut it off so when you're showing in 11 the indoor arena that it's just announced 12 outdoors. There are a couple of different 13 options; and they're all included in the indoor 14 arena. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Campbell. 16 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you. First 17 I'd like to commend the group. It's an excellent 18 presentation. There is so much information. It's 19 a very complete presentation. Obviously you've 20 put an awful lot of work into this, and we're very 21 grateful to have something that is so complete 22 presented to us. And the gifts don't hurt either. 23 (Applause.) 24 MS. CAMPBELL: They are very nice. 25 And I'm probably just overlooking it. But could ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 424 1 you remind me the dates in July that we are 2 projecting? 3 MS. BRACCO: I believe that July 4 20 or 21st to 30th we have blocked, I believe, the 5 10 days right there. 6 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bryan, do 8 you have a question? 9 MS. BRYAN: (Nods negatively.) 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bozzo. 11 MS. BOZZO: It's a question about 12 where do you plan on putting the vendors. Not 13 being a vendor. But vendors are normally 14 concerned about being next to the show ring or 15 near the show ring because that's where the 16 traffic is. Where do they have plans to put the 17 vendors at? 18 MS. BRACCO: We have a couple of 19 different options actually on vendors. We have 20 heard some kind of discontent over putting them in 21 the actual Ag B. We did this for a reason. It's 22 air conditioned. It's a very clean facility. 23 It's clean. It's not dusty. You don't have the 24 smells. It's very -- it's about 30 feet from the 25 actual show arena where we will have the roll-up ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 425 1 doors open. It's just walking from here to the 2 end of here (indicating). It's just very, very 3 close. It would not be, you know, any 4 inconvenience. 5 We also can put them on the concrete apron 6 in the livestock arena if they would rather do 7 that. When we went to the facility about two 8 weeks ago we went and we checked this out again 9 just to make sure. There is plenty of area there 10 for anything that we want to do. So either 11 option. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You still 13 have more questions? All right. Hendrickson. 14 MS. HENDRICKSON: The other issue 15 with the vendors is that area is also going to be 16 where the hospitality is set up all week long by 17 the Northwest clubs that are going to be supplying 18 coffee in the morning and snacks and goodies. So 19 the vendors are going to have a lot of traffic 20 back and forth through there because people are 21 going to go get the free food. 22 I mean, let's face it. When you are at a 23 show and you can run over and get a snack you're 24 going to go right by all those booths, so it's an 25 excellent location for the vendors. It will be a ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 426 1 high traffic area, bathrooms and food. 2 (Laughter.) 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Gustafson 4 next. 5 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have a question 6 on the motel rate. What is being the rate that is 7 offered by the host hotel? And also as a 8 comparison, any idea what the approximate rates in 9 the area are for hotels? 10 MS. JOHNSTON: No problem. I'll 11 be happy to address that. The current 2003 rates 12 at the property is quoted as $79; but with a 13 guarantee increase by $2005 it will be $82 dollars 14 even for singles, double occupancy, and that 15 includes a complimentary. And as far as other 16 hotel rate ranges in the area, we work very 17 closely with the hotels; and what we can do is we 18 can send out another, once if you guys did commit 19 to Spokane, we can send out another lead to those 20 hotels. They come back to us with their very best 21 rate, and then we can list those and they can 22 block out a certain amount of rooms for you. Not 23 necessarily do those all have to be contracted by 24 the American Dairy Goat Association; but they can 25 have a special rate quote for your group as other ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 427 1 overflow hotels. But I'm saying you could find a 2 hotel anywhere from $60 to $100. It just kind of 3 depends on, you know, what type of amenities 4 you're looking for in a property. So does that 5 help answer your question? 6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. 7 MS. JOHNSTON: Many of our limited 8 services properties do provide a complimentary 9 breakfast and like evening receptions and things 10 like that. So you will be amazed at the choices 11 that you have; and it's a very nice price. So if 12 that helps. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does Reyna 14 have a question. 15 MS. REYNA: No. 16 MS. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 17 Daubert again. We really need to resolve this 18 soon. 19 MR. DAUBERT: It's a wonderful 20 facility; and my hackles raise as soon as somebody 21 says "horse stalls." Having been burned badly in 22 horse stalls at a recent show, as soon as somebody 23 says "horse stalls" I'm, that turns me to not 24 wanting to go, not wanting to vote in favor of it. 25 I just bring that up as a comment. Horse stalls ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 428 1 are a problem. 2 MS. SENN: Excuse me. Put a 3 choice on the entry blank. This is Senn. 4 MS. OSBORN: We have 199 horse 5 stalls. That is just a small portion of our pens. 6 You know, like Karen just said, I don't know if 7 there is a choice with the Show Committee if you 8 can pick if you have horse stalls or not. I don't 9 know. They're very nice horse stalls. I went 10 through them. They have some high dollar animals 11 in there a lot at shows. They have no nails, no 12 boards, no anything; and this brand-new horse 13 stall facility is gorgeous. It's got open front 14 wire, sliding panels so your animals can see out. 15 The older ones do have solid front doors; and I do 16 believe in a lot of facilities they have that 17 also. But it's just two small barns. There are 18 not a whole lot of them. We'll be using the other 19 pens actually mostly. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 21 Karen Senn then, do you have a comment? 22 MS. SENN: We were making the 23 comment that that is not necessarily the feeling 24 of all of us that exhibit dairy goats, that many 25 of us would prefer to be in the horse stalls. So ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 429 1 that's all. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I gather 3 from the numbers that it's 20 percent of 1,000, so 4 most people obviously, you know, would be in the 5 other stalls. Any other comments? Morford. 6 MS. MORFORD: I make the motion 7 that we accept this bid. It's well presented. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Good. Now 9 we need a second. 10 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Second. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second by 12 Cassette. All right. All those in favor say 13 "aye." 14 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 16 "no." (None. ) Abstentions? Daubert. We had one 17 abstention from Daubert. Otherwise another 18 abstention here? No. We have accepted this bid. 19 Any other comments? Strickland. 20 MS. STRICKLAND: One comment: 21 This Northwest group, besides the lovely bags 22 they've given all of us, has under the show's 23 organization has put together the hospitality day 24 for the convention today. And if you saw the 25 truck that drove out here with its nose in the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 430 1 air, you really need to go over there and see what 2 they have to offer us today in terms of 3 hospitality. Just a wonderful job, wonderful 4 people; and as you can see in your pamphlet, just 5 tremendous support from all over the area for this 6 event. Thank you. 7 (Applause.) 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, we 9 are not a fast moving board; but at least we got a 10 good bid. And we now can go to Shows. Vivian 11 isn't here. Bruce Nickel is prepared to try to 12 get us through that report to take whatever 13 actions we need to do. 14 I ended up with three copies of the Show 15 Committee report, so probably some of you have 16 more than you need as well. But the one that we 17 are using is the one that was faxed in there and 18 somehow got dated 1997. I find that interesting 19 that someone with Linda's computer skills allows 20 her fax to have this date so wrong; but anyway 21 that's the report that we're going to use. 22 And Bruce is here to answer questions about 23 committee thinking in getting these 24 recommendations; but we start here with these 25 shows that have different situations that Vivian ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 431 1 has recommended these actions. So I'd like to 2 just go through those and see those. The first 3 one is the show in California. What is your 4 pleasure on that recommendation? 5 Does everyone on this page see what I'm 6 talking about? It's dated Show Committee Report 7 2003, and then about a third of the way down the 8 page, Decisions Requiring Board Action, the first 9 thing is Shasta District Fair, Anderson, 10 California. 11 The committee -- and it's very unusual. As 12 it reads the show wasn't sanctioned. An exhibitor 13 or father of an exhibitor asked for a sanction 14 after the fact. The committee said "no." So 15 that's before you to take their recommendation. 16 Does anyone want to discuss that? 17 MS. REYNA: Question. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. All 19 in favor of the committee recommendation not to 20 sanction that show will say "aye." 21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 23 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) Done. 24 Unanimous. 25 The next one is this show in Arkansas where ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 432 1 there were blanks that weren't filled in. Excuse 2 me. It was a junior doe show and there were 3 milker boxes filled in. That's what happened 4 there. What the committee is recommending four to 5 three to grant those legs anyway. What is your 6 pleasure on that? 7 MS. MAZE: Question. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All those 9 in favor say "aye." 10 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 12 "no." (None.) Carried unanimously. 13 Pennsylvania Dairy Goat Association, a similar 14 thing in that there was a zero entered, and later 15 it was determined that the number should have been 16 a five. The committee is voting, has recommended 17 approval. 18 MS. CAMPBELL: Question. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All those 20 in favor say "aye." 21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 23 "no." (None.) Carries unanimously. 24 Lane County Fair, there was an office error in 25 that the application listed a restricted or listed ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 433 1 a show that should have not been available to an 2 apprentice judge and an apprentice judge did do 3 the show. 4 MS. BRYAN: Questions. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All those 6 in favor say "aye." 7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 9 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) Unanimous. 10 MR. BITTER: Daniel. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 12 MR. BITTER: There's two items 13 under the Pennsylvania Dairy Goat Association. 14 They were separate sanctions. We didn't handle 15 the second. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The senior 17 doe show there was also a six missing for -- or a 18 six should have been an 11. Okay. The committee 19 again believes from the material that they got 20 that the correct number was 11. Those in favor 21 say "aye." 22 BOARD BOARD: Aye. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 24 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) That one is 25 approved as well. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 434 1 The Bangor show, I already addressed that 2 to you in the EC report. That's the show where it 3 was needed. We approved that. 4 And this Lancaster, Ohio show the number of 5 milking classes was omitted; but the committee has 6 looked into it and is recommending approval. 7 Those in favor say "aye." 8 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 10 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) Unanimous. 11 Central Dairy Goats, another situation 12 where the spaces for milking classes this time was 13 left blank in the breeds; but the committee has 14 looked into it and determined that we should 15 approve this, these show wins. Those in favor say 16 "aye." 17 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 19 "no." (None.) Abstentions (None.) Unanimous. 20 Dechutes, okay, good, the Oregon show, 21 the registration certificate on the Reserve 22 Champion was not checked in. There were only 10 23 does in milk in the show, and I read it that that 24 is the reason that the committee believes it 25 should not be accepted. Do you want to address ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 435 1 that? 2 MR. NICKEL: As I remember that 3 case, the registration was not checked in. The 4 woman said she had it; but didn't have it right 5 there at the pens to get checked in. When she won 6 Reserve the paper wasn't there at all, so she 7 really wasn't entered. The paperwork was never 8 really checked, so the committee voted not to 9 accept that for a leg. 10 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Question. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 12 Those in favor will say "aye." 13 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 15 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) Unanimous. 16 Okay. This Putman County Fair in Indiana there 17 were some omissions on the Report of Awards. The 18 buck Report of Awards she is recommending that the 19 buck show legs be granted, so that's the first 20 thing. Those in favor of that will say "aye." 21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 23 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) That 24 carries. 25 The junior doe show Report of Awards there ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 436 1 was a number of exhibitors omitted. She has 2 recommended still to accept the legs. Those in 3 favor will say "aye." 4 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 6 "no." 7 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Who 9 are the "nos" here? Hendrickson, Senn, Laurie 10 Petersen, Kristi Bozzo, four. Any abstentions? 11 (None.) Okay. That one does carry. Those legs 12 are granted. 13 In the senior Report of Awards she is 14 reporting that all of the number judged, all the 15 number of dry does, all the number in milk and all 16 the number of milking classes were omitted; and 17 the committee is recommending not to grant the 18 legs. Any discussion there? Those in favor will 19 say "aye." 20 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 22 "no." (None.) Abstentions? I'm an abstention on 23 that one. 24 MS. SAUM: I am too. 25 MR. BITTER: Abstain. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 437 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 2 We have three abstentions there: Saum, Bitter and 3 Considine. 4 MS. HENDRICKSON: I would like to 5 know who judged that show. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I was the 7 judge of that show; and I actually don't think 8 this information is quite right here; but... 9 Daubert. 10 MR. DAUBERT: I don't think it 11 makes any difference; by the Heart of Maine Show 12 on the bottom of the first page I don't think the 13 date is right on that show. I judged a show in 14 that next town; but I don't -- that's not the 15 right date. I don't think it makes any 16 difference; but just for the record, that's not 17 the right date. 18 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: It's July, 19 not August. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You may be 21 right. The situation is it certainly has to be 22 the one that we report to you, because it came to 23 me as president and I couldn't find it. 24 MR. DAUBERT: I just wanted to get 25 the record set straight. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 438 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You're 2 right. That's probably wrong. 3 Okay. The next item is this page. And 4 this one we need to handle carefully; but we have 5 been presented with some material about the Pana 6 Tri-County Fair. I have assured one of the 7 participants in this show that we will not name 8 names in handling this situation; and I don't 9 think we need to. What we have before us is a 10 position taken by the chairman of this committee 11 that a person serving as a superintendent working 12 for a fair is in fact still an official in an ADGA 13 show. 14 The position that I took and instructed 15 Shirley to take when we were questioned on this is 16 that the ADGA officials are the chairman and the 17 secretary on the application for a sanction and 18 the people therefore who signed our report. And 19 that someone doing work for the fair regarding the 20 diary goat show is really not an ADGA official, 21 and therefore any sanctions that we may have 22 placed upon someone do not apply because they're 23 working for the fair. 24 The chairman of this committee didn't 25 agree with that ruling; and that's why it is ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 439 1 before you. If you want to do something with it, 2 as I read it, she would want us to, she would want 3 the board to change some wording so that it's more 4 than show secretary and chairman that would be 5 involved in the sanction. She would like it to be 6 any contact. Saum. 7 MS. SAUM: I have -- this thing 8 isn't signed. Where is the signature? It's not 9 signed. 10 COURT REPORTER: The microphone, 11 Robin, please. 12 MS. SAUM: Sorry. It's not 13 signed. Where is the person that signed it? I 14 mean, anybody can put something on a piece of a 15 paper and fax it to you. There is no -- 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I'm not 17 sure what you're referring to there. 18 MS. SAUM: Are you talking about 19 the Pana letter? 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The Pana 21 situation has been brought to us because Vivian as 22 chairman feels that a family who was sanctioned by 23 the board and are prevented from serving as show 24 officials still did some work for the fair. The 25 position that I took and I instructed Shirley to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 440 1 take and Myra to take was that as long as they 2 were not chairman and secretary the sanction did 3 not apply. And the board needs to either endorse 4 the ruling that I made or change and expand the 5 intention of a sanction. Cassette. 6 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: I guess I'm 7 a little confused. What is being presented here 8 for us to consider is a change to a ruling that 9 had been made prior saying that these fair 10 officials, and you've clarified from your position 11 as president that the officials at a show are the 12 chairman and secretary. What is the committee's 13 vote to ask us to make this change? 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Was there a 15 committee vote? 16 MR. NICKEL: Yes, there was a 17 committee vote. I don't know what the outcome 18 was. I didn't get that information back. I don't 19 have it listed, so I don't know exactly what the 20 vote was on it. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Hendrickson. 22 MS. HENDRICKSON: Frankly I'm a 23 little uncomfortable extending this sanction to a 24 volunteer who is donating time to help get a show 25 off the ground at a fair. You know, chairman and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 441 1 secretary, yes, I don't want to see her doing the 2 Report of Awards. But as far as like volunteering 3 to help do some of the organization for the show, 4 I think it would be a big mistake to discourage 5 people that are willing to give some time to these 6 organizations. They're not getting paid, and you 7 know, this would probably keep a lot of people 8 from ever wanting to volunteer if they thought 9 they could just get kicked off for making a 10 mistake. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Altheide. 12 MR. ALTHEIDE: I move that we 13 endorse the decision made by the Association 14 president in this issue. 15 MR. BURKS: Second. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Motion, 17 seconded by Burks. All right. Any discussion of 18 that? Those in favor say "aye." 19 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 21 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) That 22 carries. 23 All right. The next issue is brought 24 from this committee, and it involves, you know, a 25 family member, so I am stepping out, and Robin ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 442 1 will handle what needs to be done here. 2 MS. SAUM: I'm not sure what 3 Vivian is asking for in this little section. You 4 all have it, page five. It says page five at the 5 top at least. It's before you. I'll give you a 6 minute to read it; and then we can discuss 7 whatever you'd like to discuss. Harvey, do you 8 want to have a closed session? 9 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: I think for 10 the protection of ADGA it would be a good idea, 11 because we already have a complaint from last year 12 which we didn't handle regarding the same type of 13 thing. 14 MS. SAUM: That's your 15 prerogative. There you go, folks. We'll see you 16 shortly. 17 MS. CAMPBELL: Point of order. 18 MS. SAUM: Yes. Do we need to 19 vote on that, Linda? 20 MS. CAMPBELL: We need to move to 21 go into executive session; and I so move. 22 MS. BOZZO: Second. 23 MS. SAUM: Second by Bozzo. All 24 in favor. 25 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 443 1 MS. SAUM: Opposed? (None.) 2 Abstentions? (None.) There we have it. 3 (Executive session ensues and then 4 open board meeting continues.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 457 1 MS. SAUM: Do we have a motion? 2 Cassette. 3 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: I move that 4 the American Dairy Goat Association through its 5 association manager send a letter to Harvey 6 Considine instructing Harvey that the intent of 7 the two-week rule for not render services for 8 recompense includes the assistance and 9 verification of work done by others performing 10 services. 11 MS. SENN: Second. 12 MS. SAUM: Seconded by Senn. Any 13 discussion? 14 MS. BOZZO: Question. 15 MS. SAUM: Question. All in favor 16 say "aye." 17 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 18 MS. SAUM: Opposed? (None.) 19 Abstentions? Harvey Considine, George Altheide. 20 Daniel are you abstaining? 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. I'm 22 considered not even here. 23 (Laughter.) 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: But yes, an 25 abstension. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 458 1 MS. SAUM: Okay. The motion 2 passed. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Now we're 4 on page six. Is that where we are? 5 MR. NICKEL: Yes, sir. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And at page 7 six, Rules and New Changes, okay, the first item 8 then is having to do with checking of papers; and 9 the explanation is there. Do you want this 10 changed? 11 MR. NICKEL: The next few rule 12 changes that Vivian had included are based on ROA 13 problems; and the committee generally works with 14 ROA problems. No one seems to be taking 15 responsibility for that. I talked to Karen, and 16 she said that they are working with the Show 17 Committee -- or with the Judges Committee and 18 working with the judges trying to get them to be 19 more responsible for checking those out. But it's 20 in the end it's the exhibitor that loses on the 21 deal; and we get a lot of complaints from them on 22 that. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Actually 24 the first I don't think is Report of Awards, 25 Bruce. That one as I read it has to do with being ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 459 1 more specific about the requirement that the 2 papers be checked. 3 MR. NICKEL: Right. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's 5 really what it is. Spelling out these details of 6 what is expected by paper checking on page seven. 7 MS. SENN: We'd like to a make a 8 friendly amendment that we change that from "show 9 secretary" perhaps to "show official," because it 10 could be the show secretary. And we're really 11 moving more and more into being so specific in 12 these rules it could be the show secretary or a 13 designee, and we think it would be more 14 appropriate to say "show official." 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We don't 16 even have the chairman here, so you can do that by 17 amending this by posting an amendment of changed 18 wording. 19 MS. SENN: So amended. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 21 That's a motion then to change the wording of 22 "secretary" to "official." 23 MS. MAZE: Second. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I believe I 25 have Senn and Maze on that motion. Those in favor ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 460 1 of this proposed change in the wording of the 2 recommendation of the committee from "secretary" 3 to "official" will say "aye." 4 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 6 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) All right. 7 That word is changed. Other discussion on this 8 motion? Senn. Saum. 9 MS. SAUM: Saum, Senn, whichever. 10 I have an issue that none of the committee vote is 11 listed on any of these. I'm not comfortable. I'm 12 not comfortable taking changes to show things 13 without the vote of the Show Committee. 14 MR. NICKEL: This was presented to 15 the committee. I know I voted on it. I cannot 16 tell you what the final vote was because she 17 doesn't share that with us. 18 MS. SAUM: There's an issue. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Questions, 20 any other? Okay. We did have more questions 21 here, I think. Altheide. 22 MR. ALTHEIDE: I have a question 23 with what do they mean by "verify the information 24 on vote"? Is that compare it against the 25 information and make sure it is the same, or a ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 461 1 little -- do they go a little further? 2 MR. NICKEL: No. It's just 3 checking to make sure that the information is 4 accurate, that we've got the right dates, birth 5 dates and they're in the right classes so that we 6 don't have the confusion in the ring. 7 MR. ALTHEIDE: But that's against 8 the entry form and the registration certificate? 9 MR. NICKEL: Yes, sir. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bozzo next. 11 MS. BOZZO: I'm going to have to 12 speak against this motion. They specifically say 13 "entry form," and a lot of fairs take the original 14 entry forms that are computer generated. I know 15 the intent was probably the official show sheets; 16 but I just because it says "entry form" when are 17 we going to have someone come back in and say 18 "Well, it wasn't the original entry form. It was 19 the computer generated sheet that we looked at"? 20 And she specifically says "entry form" there. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Senn. 22 MS. SAUM: Saum. Red, blond. 23 (LAUGHTER.) 24 MS. SAUM: I am really concerned 25 about we have a show report that we do not have ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 462 1 the vote of the members of the Show Committee; and 2 I move that we refer this entire thing back to the 3 Show Committee. 4 MS. DEAN: Second. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have a 6 motion from Saum, second from Dean, to refer the 7 pages following, which would BE five of them, page 8 six through 10 of the handwritten numbers. So 9 that refers a lot of material. That's the motion 10 we have though. Does anyone want to discuss the 11 merits of referring all of this? The motion is to 12 refer all of the material from here back on these 13 recommendations. 14 MS. SAUM: There are no votes. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: It doesn't matter. 16 MS. SAUM: Yes, it does. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Wait to be 18 recognized, please. That's the motion. Do you 19 want to address the motion to refer? That's where 20 we are now. Do you want to dispense with all this 21 material or not? Bryan. 22 MS. BRYAN: I just want to comment 23 that we have committees that turn in no work to us 24 during the year; and this is a committee that has 25 worked very, very hard to produce all of this ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 463 1 material to us. They have obviously voted. You 2 have a committee member up there that is telling 3 you that he has voted on all these issues; and now 4 we're turning this back to them and saying we're 5 not going to consider it. I have a real problem 6 with that, folks. I'm sorry. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's 8 appropriate discussion, because the motion before 9 you is the referral motion. Those in favor of 10 referring will say "aye." 11 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 13 "no." 14 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Who are the 16 "ayes"? We have Helen Snyder, Anderson, Harvey 17 Considine, Patty Dean, Bozzo, Saum, Goddard. Any 18 abstentions? We have abstentions from Morford and 19 Hendrickson. Okay. That motion is defeated. We 20 do have this before us then. 21 So the first item there is this one where 22 we changed the word, and that is what we need to 23 either accept, change or reject. Are you ready to 24 vote on that one? 25 MS. CAMPBELL: Question. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 464 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Those in 2 favor of this first proposal, "The document for 3 that animal to be shown must be handed to the show 4 official who shall read it and compare its 5 information to that on it's entry form and verify 6 the information on both," those in favor say 7 "aye." 8 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 10 "no." 11 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 13 Abstentions? (None.) Who are the "nos"? We have 14 a lot of "nos." Pete Snyder, Helen Snyder, 15 Sankey, Kempe, Anderson, Gustafson, Dean, Bozzo, 16 Daniel Considine, Saum, Strickland, Morford, 17 Hendrickson, Weaver. I don't know what that total 18 is. 19 MR. WILSON: I counted 14. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I just 21 listed 14 people there? 22 MS. MCKENZIE: 13. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 13? No 24 abstentions? So the motion was you say 13 "no." 25 MS. MCKENZIE: 13. Do you want to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 465 1 ask again to be sure? 2 MR. CONSIDINE: Maybe we need a 3 roll call to be sure. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: All right. George 5 Altheide. 6 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 8 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 10 MR. BITTER: Yes. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 12 MS. BOZZO: No. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 14 MS. BRYAN: Yes. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 16 MR. BURKS: Yes. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 18 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 20 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Yes. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 24 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Yes. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 466 1 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 3 MS. DEAN: No. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 5 MR. GODDARD: Yes. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 7 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 9 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe, 11 MS. KEMPE: No. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze 13 MS. MAZE: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford 15 MS. MORFORD: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 17 MR. PAIGE: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 19 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 21 MS. REYNA: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 23 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 25 MS. SANKEY: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 467 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 2 MS. SAUM: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 4 MS. SENN: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 6 MS. HELEN SNYDER: No. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 8 MR. PETE SNYDER: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 10 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 12 MS. WEAVER: No. So do we have a 13 16 to 13 vote? 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes, we do. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So the 16 first item has carried. 17 And we move through item two, "The date 18 checks and credit cards determines the cost." And 19 the reason that she is bringing this then 20 apparently has to do with sanction forms that 21 require some time to be completed. Any discussion 22 of that? 23 MR. NICKEL: People or groups will 24 send in applications that have information missing 25 for shows; and they feel that when they first sent ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 468 1 it in that's the price that they should be charged 2 for the show. And at times it takes all the way 3 up until like the last week before the show before 4 they get the information back in, and it's a big 5 rush for the office. The committee thought that 6 it would be in the best interest of the office 7 that they should get paid extra for it, and that 8 the show committees or the groups that are now 9 sanctioning these shows should have to pay a 10 little bit extra for wanting it done quickly and 11 not getting it in right the first time. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We already 13 have the policies of course on higher prices as 14 you get closer to the show. The difference here 15 is that this committee wants us to be really 16 demanding about absolutely everything to be done 17 to set the time. That's what this is about. 18 Senn, did you have a comment? 19 MS. SENN: Yes. I just the way 20 this is stated it says in number two it says "Page 21 55(b)(5): The date the checks or credit cards 22 clear for the amount due." This would be a 23 change, because it doesn't say that in here at all 24 about when the checks clear. I don't think -- it 25 must be accompanied, check must be accompanies and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 469 1 the payment must be accompanied; but I think this 2 might create some confusion. Or is she trying to 3 change it? So that's what we're determining now? 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: She is 5 definitely trying to change it. Do not doubt 6 that. 7 MS. SENN: She wants to change it 8 and add that whole section so we'd have to check 9 when the check clears? 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 11 Campbell. 12 MS. CAMPBELL: I have a question, 13 a procedural question in terms of other things 14 that we receive, an application, for example, and 15 we have something that is based on a date with 16 fee changes. How is that handled. Let's say a 17 registration application is returned or there are 18 questions or something that's not correct and we 19 receive it and we're now into a second time frame. 20 Is that the charge? 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes, it is. 22 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, that is. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I 24 think we need to have a clear statement here from 25 the staff in response to that, so we need a ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 470 1 microphone to be used to assure the answer. 2 Someone needs a microphone. Either Jim or 3 Shirley, someone needs that microphone. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: I'm sorry. I 5 thought I had already answered. Yes. Whenever a 6 registration application comes in if it's returned 7 and we send it back maybe with a breeder error 8 report and it comes back then a second time, if 9 I'm understanding your question correctly, we do 10 charge the rate for the second time that it comes 11 in. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So that has 13 to do with the timing of the receipt. That 14 doesn't have to do with the credit card or check 15 though. That's another matter, yes. Robin. 16 MS. SAUM: I would speak in 17 opposition to this; and the only thing is a lot of 18 people who send in sanctioning they are fairs. 19 And our sanctioning form could be easier. It 20 could be harder; but I don't think we should 21 penalize fairs that want to sanction shows for 22 dairy goats, because many of them they don't care 23 whether they're sanctioned or not. And I think we 24 need to be customer friendly to those fairs. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Daubert. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 471 1 MR. DAUBERT: On page 55, Section 2 (b)(5) it does state now "If any of these 3 requirements are lacking, the postmark (not 4 metered) of the latest communication necessary to 5 fulfill requirements will determine the cost." I 6 think it's covered. We can't worry about check 7 clearing. 8 MS. SAUM: Question. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. All 10 those in favor of this proposal from the committee 11 will say "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 12 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 14 Abstentions? (None.) That one is defeated. 15 Item three has to do with stating an age 16 for show official. 17 MS. MAZE: Question. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. No 19 one wants to discuss that one. Okay with that? 20 Bitter. 21 MR. BITTER: Well, I'll discuss 22 it. It seems like we have some shows that are 23 sanctioned by youth groups. What is this going to 24 do with those shows? It seems like it would be a 25 real problem for them. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 472 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Morford. 2 MS. MORFORD: There are plenty of 3 youth out there that are perfectly capable of 4 filling out these forms. My daughter does and has 5 for a good while. So I don't see a problem with 6 this for the most part. I think plenty of young 7 people are capable of it, especially if everybody 8 else is doing their job. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 10 Does anyone else want to address it? Do you want 11 to respond, Bruce? 12 MR. NICKEL: The reason this came 13 up was that the legalities of it. By having a 14 junior member fill out the forms is fine; but 15 they're not legal. There is if someone contests 16 this and they want to go to court on it, you're 17 working with a minor. Well, that's where this 18 basically came is that she wanted to have 19 everybody that was working being a show official 20 was of legal age. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Anymore 22 need for discussion on that? Campbell. 23 MS. CAMPBELL: Is there a 24 difference between someone, a signature, being a 25 legal signature? See what I'm saying? If there ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 473 1 are individuals who are completing the form, but 2 the final signature is someone who is of legal 3 age? 4 MR. NICKEL: I don't know if we 5 necessarily have control over that. We do have to 6 take the word of a show who signs it and go with 7 that. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna. 9 MS. REYNA: It was just mentioned 10 that it might be a junior member who, you know, 11 would be under age and be an official. But you 12 know, it isn't always the case that a show 13 official is actually an ADGA member at all. The 14 secretary at the Lane County Fair for the last 20 15 years hasn't been an ADGA member. She was once; 16 but she is an official and she signs. So "junior 17 member" is not the issue. It's "junior" period. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 19 Ready for a vote on that? All those in favor of 20 this proposal say "aye." 21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 23 "no." 24 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We need a ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 474 1 roll call. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 3 MR. ALTHEIDE: No. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 5 MS. ANDERSON: No. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 7 MR. BITTER: No. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 9 MS. BOZZO: No. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 11 MS. BRYAN: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 13 MR. BURKS: No. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 17 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: No. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 21 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: No. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 23 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 25 MS. DEAN: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 475 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 2 MR. GODDARD: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Abstaining. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 6 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 8 MS. KEMPE: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 10 MS. MAZE: Yes. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 12 MS. MORFORD: No. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 14 MR. PAGE: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 16 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 18 MS. REYNA: No. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 20 DR. DEAN ROWE: Yes. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 22 MS. SANKEY: No. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 24 MS. SAUM: No. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 476 1 MS. SENN: No. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 3 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Yes. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 5 MR. PETER SNYDER: No. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 7 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 9 MS. WEAVER: Yes. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: There are seven 11 "yes." 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: There are 13 seven "yes." 14 MS. MCKENZIE: One abstaining. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: One, 16 Gustafson. Therefore this motion is defeated. 17 Item four then is the statement on alteration 18 of certificates. Any discussion of that one? Do 19 you want to address it? 20 MR. NICKEL: I think this one is 21 pretty self explanatory, that any alterations on 22 the registration papers or recordation of the fax 23 transfers will not be accepted by show officials. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Maze. 25 MS. MAZE: Is an alteration ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 477 1 considered if the secretary makes a mistake and 2 initials it? 3 MR. NICKEL: I'm sorry. 4 MS. MAZE: Is the alteration 5 considered if the secretary makes a mistake and 6 initials it? Is that considered an alteration? 7 MR. NICKEL: I don't know why the 8 secretary would be doing that. 9 MS. MAZE: A registration date. 10 MR. NICKEL: A registration 11 date, -- 12 MS. MAZE: Not on the show papers. 13 MR. NICKEL: -- because they 14 shouldn't be marking it. 15 MS. MAZE: Okay. 16 MR. NICKEL: Thank you. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Petersen. 18 MS. PETERSEN: I have a question. 19 On a transfer is it, writing on a transfer is that 20 an alteration. And also a -- I know a few years 21 ago I saw an old paper that had the Champion or 22 Grand Champion typed in by the office. That would 23 look like an alteration to me. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 25 Campbell, comments on this motion? ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 478 1 MS. CAMPBELL: Isn't that what is 2 stated on the certificate itself, alterations of 3 this make it null and void. I'm looking at my 4 sample paper here. But doesn't that state that 5 clearly on the certificate? 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That sounds 7 right, yes. Do we, does anyone want to comment 8 on this? The motion before you is if there is any 9 alteration to the registration or recordation 10 certificate, it shall not be accepted by anyone, 11 especially the show officials and the judge. That 12 is the motion before you. Those in favor will say 13 "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 14 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 16 Abstentions? (None.) Unanimously defeated. All 17 right. 18 We already have a Rule 56; and this is a 19 recommendation to make that Rule more demanding, 20 more stringent in that it would apply to another 21 registry's, the ability of a show club I would say 22 to be able to get legs for their exhibitors on two 23 different registries. That is what apparently is 24 involved here. Is that right? 25 MR. NICKEL: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 479 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So any 2 discussion of that change that is proposed to the 3 Rule 56? Yes, Gustafson. 4 MS. GUSTAFSON: I know that there 5 are some shows out there in which they hold their 6 youth show which is a non sanctioned show involved 7 in with the ADGA show. Would this have any effect 8 on them whatsoever? Just a point of 9 clarification. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The rule, 11 should I address it, or do you want to? 12 MR. NICKEL: You can. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: This gets 14 tricky; but the rule that we have now as I 15 understand it would allow a club to hold a youth 16 show within an ADGA show, but not a sanctioned 17 one. 18 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's what I want 19 to clarify. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So you 21 could give some youth awards out of the lineup; 22 but you couldn't read a tattoo on one doe after 23 that set of classes are judged, call her, give her 24 and ADGA leg, and read the tattoo on the same doe 25 or a different doe and award her a junior show ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 480 1 leg. You can't do it that way. 2 And what this proposes is that you can do a 3 comparable thing with, you know, the International 4 Dairy Goat Association, AGS or whatever. That's 5 what this would do. It would say you cannot award 6 a Champion to a doe from any other registry during 7 that show. Campbell. 8 MS. CAMPBELL: I'd like to speak 9 against this, because I don't think ADGA can nor 10 should control what the other registries are 11 doing, the Canadian Goat Society or whomever that 12 may be involved. I think that is outside our 13 responsibilities. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Strickland. 15 MS. STRICKLAND: My question, we 16 see a lot of these shows now where the local 17 organization also does a separate Nigerian Dwarf 18 show. So then are you bringing that in? Are you 19 saying now "Well, here you are judging ADGA dairy 20 goat milkers and now we're going to do the Dwarf 21 milkers, and then we're going to go to the 22 juniors"? Is that now an AGS show within an ADGA 23 show? I speak against this. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is everyone 25 comfortable with the question Chris asked? ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 481 1 Hendrickson. 2 MS. HENDRICKSON: I would also 3 speak against it, because we do that with an AGS 4 Nigerian show with our show; and we have started 5 showing some Nigerians with a judge because we 6 wanted to keep the show moving. And this is an 7 issue. If you want to be there until midnight, 8 you do all the standard breeds first and then do 9 the others, or do the Nigerians first, then the 10 standards breeds; but it's going to be a moot 11 point after 2005. I can't see changing it now. I 12 mean, I don't think it really applies in any other 13 case. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 15 That's speaking against the motion. I think I 16 should clarify a little bit how I see the Nigerian 17 situation that we currently have related to this. 18 To me it doesn't either one of these rules, the 19 one we now have or the one we would change it to, 20 it wouldn't need to apply just because a club is 21 conducting another show in addition to the other 22 show. 23 As I see this wording it would be that you 24 couldn't have it as part of the ADGA show. The 25 Nigerians are not part of our show anyway. So if ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 482 1 a club wants to hold a 4-H show, an AGS show, a 2 Nigerian Dairy Goat Association Show and that is a 3 separate set of classes, I don't think it exactly 4 applies to that. That's how I see it. 5 Okay. Anyway, the motion is before you. 6 Do you want this or not, because it has to do with 7 AGS obviously or any other registry who may be 8 awarding legs in our breeds, something we do 9 sanction. Those in favor will say "aye." (None.) 10 Opposed "no." 11 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 13 Abstentions? (None.) Unanimously defeated. 14 The Champion Challenge Class, item number 15 six now, "will not be official if it wasn't 16 sanctioned" is basically what that says; but it 17 looks -- is that what it is? 18 MR. NICKEL: That's pretty much 19 it. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, Rowe. 21 DR. DEAN ROWE: I'm finding it 22 very difficult trying understanding how if it 23 appears in the list of classes, it could be 24 unsanctioned. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think -- ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 483 1 okay. Do you want to answer that? Because I 2 think it has to do with fees. Saum. 3 MS. SAUM: This happened to me 4 once. I was judging a state fair in the Midwest; 5 and clearly on their rules they had listed the 6 Champion Challenge class and they had provided 7 awards for the Champion Challenge class; but a 8 Best of Breed ribbon didn't come from ADGA. So 9 during the show I called the ADGA office and said 10 "Hey, we didn't get a Best of Breed, you know, 11 rosette for these people." What had happened was 12 the state fair filled out the sanctioning form and 13 they missed paying the monies for it. So then 14 ADGA didn't sanction it even though it was in 15 their rules. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 17 Rowe. 18 DR. DEAN ROWE: I would interpret 19 this as direction for office policy that, I mean, 20 it seems to me if the class list is sent in, that 21 we could be more member friendly in the office in 22 perhaps detecting what classes should be, should 23 appear. And I mean, when we send that as the 24 stamped, approved class list then it seems to be 25 more of an administrative issue of working out ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 484 1 fees and appropriate sanction. 2 MS. SAUM: They gave it to them. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Does 4 anyone else want to address this proposal number 5 six? Those in favor will say "aye." (None.) 6 Opposed "no." 7 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 9 Abstentions? (None.) Defeated unanimously. 10 Number seven then: "Animals with no 11 tattoos shall be disqualified from participating 12 further in a show." Any discussion of that? 13 Page. 14 MR. PAGE: I have a problem with 15 the last word or two words from "participating 16 further in that show." Now you come up there for 17 the three-day show; and to show this goat on the 18 six-month olds you don't read tattoos until you 19 win something. And after you win and check the 20 tattoo you are disqualified, but you receive the 21 money. That is that show. 22 Now come Saturday morning another show 23 starts; and the same thing happens. I think it 24 ought to be that for any other show until 25 tattooed, you know. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 485 1 MR. NICKEL: I think that you'd 2 have a difficult time unless you're at like a 3 three-day show and you could -- 4 MR. PAGE: That's what we're 5 talking about is three-day shows. 6 MR. NICKEL: Yes. Unless you were 7 to amend this and have it that it would be during 8 a show weekend. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Nixon. 10 MS. NIXON: First of all, I think 11 each show that Carl is talking about is separately 12 sanctioned. And so once that one show is 13 completed the next show at the same fairgrounds is 14 a different show. But my point on this is if we 15 disqualify an animal, we don't read the tattoos 16 generally speaking until the animal gets Grand or 17 Reserve. If we disqualify our Grand Champion, 18 then we are impacting the rule that says "All 19 Grand Champions must return for Best In Show." So 20 I think this rule further impacts the show; and I 21 think probably we should spend some more time 22 seeing how it impacts it before we vote for it. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I had a 24 couple of hands over here first. Altheide. 25 MR. ALTHEIDE: Well, I tend to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 486 1 agree with Sheila on that, because it says -- this 2 is an area we covered back in '99 in Ohio but 3 watered down a little bit. And some the issues 4 are it says "from participating further in the 5 show." 6 Well, group classes can be considered as a 7 part of the show; but they're not ADGA sanctioned. 8 So are we going to prohibit that animal from 9 participating in group classes as well? I think 10 we need to, as Sheila says, this needs a little 11 more work. It needs to be clearly spelled out. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 13 Bitter hasn't spoken on this one yet. 14 MR. BITTER: I move we refer 15 number seven back to committee. 16 MS. CAMPBELL: Motion to refer. 17 Is that a second from Page? 18 MR. PAGE: No. I want to -- 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do we have 20 a second on that? No second on that. Okay. 21 MS. BOZZO: Question. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The 23 question is before you then: "Animals with no 24 tattoos shall be disqualified from participating 25 further in that show." Those in favor will say ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 487 1 "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 2 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 4 Abstentions? (None.) Defeated unanimously. 5 Number eight -- 6 MS. CAMPBELL: Point of order. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 8 MS. CAMPBELL: That was a motion 9 to refer? 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No, it 11 wasn't. It didn't get a second. 12 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Could you 14 help explain that one? 15 MR. NICKEL: Number eight is 16 addressing the problem of people not getting their 17 paperwork, actual registration papers from the 18 office and working with stamped duplicates. And 19 that may have happened in the past; but since the 20 office is running so well I don't know how this 21 would be addressed, because you know, if you have 22 the stamped duplicate, you should have the 23 paperwork within a couple of weeks. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. I'm 25 not -- that's his explanation. I actually tried ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 488 1 to read this thing. And I'm wondering if the 2 second part of the first sentence isn't the real 3 meat of it where the Show Committee may choose to 4 require a certificate under six months. And then 5 if they choose to do it, that we endorse them 6 doing it. Maybe that's what this is? Senn. 7 MS. SENN: I think that would be, 8 guessing at intent, would be that animals having 9 been with the papers not at check-in are 10 disqualified on show day. I think it may have 11 been in regard to a show where a doe got, say, 12 Grand Champion or Reserve Grand Champion I think 13 we had it earlier where the doe did not have her 14 papers. There was a discussion that was brought 15 up. And if they don't have their papers, then 16 they disqualify them from the number. I think 17 that may be what is being referred. I'm just not 18 sure that we need -- I would speak against the 19 motion myself, because I'm not sure we need that 20 last sentence. I think it's just making it more 21 complicated. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is there 23 anyone here that understands this and wants to 24 defend this motion? Those in favor will say 25 "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 489 1 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 3 Abstentions? Unanimously defeated. 4 Number nine then is dictating that the 5 office not return a copy of a registration 6 certificate. Again, can you tell us what that is 7 about? 8 MR. NICKEL: It looks to me like 9 that information was not accurate on an 10 application for a kid, and it was sent back to the 11 person, faxed back to the person for additional 12 information; and people were using that as the 13 stamped duplicate. And it wasn't a stamped 14 duplicate. It didn't have the stamp on it; but it 15 was a fax from the office with the note telling 16 them what they had to fix, and people were using 17 it as a stamped duplicate. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. I 19 guess that explains what happened and the reason 20 it's before us. Could some of the staff tell us 21 if this is a normal thing to be faxing back a copy 22 of the paper with a notation on the paper? 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes. I think what 24 happened here is that we received a certificate to 25 be transferred by a fax; and this happens a lot of ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 490 1 times. People don't realize that they cannot fax 2 the certificate of registry to be transferred 3 along with their registration applications. And 4 the mail clerk faxed that back to them along with 5 a generic checkoff sheet saying "We must have the 6 original. Please put that in the mail." Since 7 Vivian had brought this to my attention that maybe 8 this was being used at shows for the wrong 9 purpose, I've asked the mail clerk not to send 10 that back, just to send the generic checkoff 11 sheet. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. So 13 this is Shirley's explanation of what happened and 14 action that she has taken on this type of 15 situation already. Strickland. 16 MS. STRICKLAND: There is a little 17 more. I'm not on the committee; but I know there 18 is a little bit more involved here. Because you 19 can send an application for registry and have a 20 faxed duplicate and have a copy received marked. 21 You can have a stamped duplicate sent back, and at 22 some point after that as the registration is 23 processed discover there is an error, and then 24 that copy you faxed to the office comes back to 25 you. So you're out there with a stamped duplicate ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 491 1 you can show on, and the office has no paper on 2 the animal. It has happened to me more than once. 3 So I think there is more in office policy that has 4 to be addressed here. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Rowe. 6 DR. DEAN ROWE: It would seem to 7 me that this is not an issue for show rules, and 8 so further consideration might come under 9 registration practices or just direction of office 10 policy in some other venue. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And? 12 DR. DEAN ROWE: So let's vote it 13 down or whatever we have to do, speak against it. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Daubert. 15 MR. DAUBERT: I think also that 16 error reports are sent back. A copy of the 17 application is sent back on the error report so 18 that you can see what our error is. I did see 19 three of those error reports trying to be 20 presented as papers in a show this year. They had 21 no stamp on them; but they were just sent back. 22 And it was a logical thing to do. You send it 23 back so you can see what your errors are. But 24 those are being used to try and enter shows. And 25 if the show secretary isn't catching it, those are ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 492 1 being used for papers. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So Dave, do 3 you believe that this rule helps to prevent that, 4 or do you think that's already covered? 5 MR. DAUBERT: I think this rule 6 helps to prevent that. Don't send those things 7 back because they're being used. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 9 Anyone else want to speak in favor of this motion? 10 DR. DEAN ROWE: Point of 11 clarification. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Point of 13 clarification. 14 DR. DEAN ROWE: So the point of 15 clarification is that you're speaking in favor of 16 putting this in our show rules in order to give 17 office direction that in the process of 18 registration they not release originals of 19 applications back to the owner for -- again, I'd 20 speak against this, because I don't think it 21 belongs in Shows. 22 MR. DAUBERT: I agree. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think 24 we're probably ready for a question here. 25 MS. SAUM: Question. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 493 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Those in 2 favor will say "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 3 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 5 Abstentions? (None.) This one is defeated 6 unanimously as well. Campbell. 7 MS. CAMPBELL: Defeating is one 8 thing. But should we not give that direction to 9 staff for that to be our policy, to not return 10 copies of the registration certificate or 11 recordation certificate or application? 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Shirley, 13 could you restate what you did as far as changing 14 the policy from the mail clerk already? 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes. I did ask the 16 mail clerk not to fax back a copy of a certificate 17 of registry that had been faxed into us for 18 transfer. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So we do 20 have some change in office direction already. Do 21 you think more than that is needed? Strickland. 22 MS. STRICKLAND: I believe the 23 office should not send back to the member with the 24 error report the original paper that was sent in. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: We have to. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 494 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's an 2 opinion from one director here on how office 3 should handle papers that need changing. Do you 4 want to address that, Shirley? 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Do I understand you 6 correctly, Chris? You're saying that if there is 7 a problem with an application for registration 8 that comes into us, that we should not send that 9 paper back to them with the breeder error report? 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Strickland. 11 MS. STRICKLAND: I don't believe 12 the original should go back; and that perhaps they 13 should get a copy. But if you send back the only 14 one they sent to you and they sent it to you by 15 fax, then they could have a stamped duplicate and 16 the original application for registry and be out 17 there six months showing this goat where ADGA has 18 no record of her existing. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Snyder, do 20 you have comments? Helen Snyder. 21 MS. HELEN SNYDER: One thing that 22 can be done is to actually, like our new 23 certificates have something on there like saying 24 "Void" or "This cannot be used for shows," just 25 some little statement written over that. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 495 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Kempe. 2 MR. KEMPE: Can we go to Kinko's 3 and get it on a stamp in red ink and say "Not for 4 show use"? 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do we need 6 further -- 7 MR. KEMPE: It wouldn't be in red; 8 but the stamp would still be there. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do you 10 think we need to do any more with this, or are we 11 comfortable that the office staff understands that 12 they should be very careful with what is returned? 13 Would that be satisfactory? 14 MS. BOZZO: Yes. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Let's move 16 on to Item 10. "At the completion of the show 17 the," basically what this as I read it it says is 18 that the sponsoring organization copy needs to be 19 left. I didn't know we needed to state it. But 20 Senn. 21 MS. SENN: I just have a question 22 on this. It says "insert as new L 12." That 23 would change right now, I mean, our other rules in 24 that section. So I'm not sure that that is 25 appropriate and where it would go anyway. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 496 1 The other question is why do we need to add 2 a rule to tell them specifically? On a Report of 3 Awards it says at the bottom that the judge keeps 4 one, the office gets a copy and the sponsoring 5 organization gets the gold copy. Why do we have 6 to spell that out specifically in here and add to 7 it? I don't understand the necessity. 8 MR. NICKEL: Vivian just felt it 9 was necessary to have it in the rules because some 10 of the judges are taking all of the copies and not 11 leaving one with the sponsor; and when she 12 contacts the sponsor to find out the information 13 that is gone. And if all the copies are with the 14 judge, then you don't have one copy that is 15 independent of the others. 16 MS. SENN: So this IS a rule to be 17 made like there was a specific instance perhaps 18 that occurred? 19 MR. NICKEL: I believe that there 20 was; but it wasn't shared with us, and it was just 21 brought to our attention that we needed to change 22 the rule and it would be more efficient. 23 MS. SENN: Okay. I just don't 24 understand the necessity. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 497 1 here want to support this rule with an explanation 2 of the need for this? 3 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Question. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All those 5 in favor of the rule will say "aye." 6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 8 "no." 9 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Abstentions? 11 (None.) Unanimously defeated. 12 MR. BITTER: "Yes." 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: A "no" 14 here? 15 MR. BITTER: Yes. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That was a 17 "yes"? 18 MR. BITTER: It was a "yes." And 19 there may have been one down there too 20 (indicating). 21 MR. CONSIDINE: Was there another 22 "yes"? 23 MS. WEAVER: I meant to vote "no." 24 MS. BOZZO: It was an error. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So one ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 498 1 "yes" from Bitter on that motion. 2 Number 11, this is to be sure that the 3 membership is informed of rule changes. 4 MR. NICKEL: It's just so that the 5 people that do show have this information to them 6 before the new Guidebook comes out, it's printed 7 in the News & Events so you can see what is 8 happening and be aware of it before the show 9 season starts. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Shirley. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: I think you've 12 already voted on this and we do that. We print 13 those every year in the fourth quarter newsletter. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I know we 15 print a lot of them. And do we also send in the 16 show package to the previous year's show officials 17 new rules prior to when the Guidebook comes out? 18 Do we send a package to each show committee? 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes. 20 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. So we're 21 getting this information already to the people who 22 have sponsored shows the previous year in a 23 special mailing. We already do put it in the 24 newsletter. Does anyone feel we need this action? 25 Those in favor will say "aye." (None.) Opposed ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 499 1 "no." 2 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 4 Abstentions? (None.) Unanimously defeated. 5 This next one is a fine system. This is a 6 fine system. They're both fine systems; but the 7 first one has to do with timing -- I think we 8 should possibly handle them separately -- that the 9 judge will be fined because the report isn't 10 mailed in the time frames. Does anyone want to 11 talk about this? 12 MR. NICKEL: Judges don't get the 13 paperwork in the office in a timely manner; and 14 Vivian is trying to put a little screws to the 15 judges to make sure that information gets back to 16 the office in a timely manner. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Saum. 18 MS. SAUM: Karen, look. It's in 19 there. We just did it for the Judges Committee. 20 MS. SENN: Uh-huh (yes). 21 MS. SAUM: You get, you are 22 already penalized if you don't get your Report of 23 Awards. After 14 days you get a phone call. Am I 24 right? So many days you get something else, and 25 then so many days you lose your tenure. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 500 1 MS. SENN: Yes. 2 MS. SAUM: And that after that we 3 just "kill you." 4 (Laughter.) 5 DANIEL CONSIDINE: We are now a 6 judge and a jury. 7 (Laughter.) 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Callahan. 9 MS. CALLAHAN: If we are going to 10 consider this, I have a question about the "not 11 needed," because the envelope we get to send the 12 stuff back in is metered. So does that mean if 13 we're late, we have to -- not late, we're going to 14 have to put another stamp on it? 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I sense 16 we're ready to vote on this. 17 DR. DEAN ROWE: Question. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All those 19 in favor of this will say "aye." (None.) Opposed 20 "no." 21 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 23 Abstentions? (None.) Unanimously defeated. 24 Thirteen, similar. This has to do with 25 mistakes rather than time. Does anyone wish to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 501 1 speak in favor of this motion? Those in favor 2 will say "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 3 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Abstentions? 5 (None.) Defeated number 13 as well. 6 Number 14, this one is an attempt by ADGA 7 to spell out the, as I read it, the only 8 acceptable way to have a Best Udder set of classes 9 at a fair. I think that's what this is. Right? 10 MR. NICKEL: Yes. That's right. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So I'm 12 saying that if you as a show committee want a Best 13 Udder in Class, want an udder competition as part 14 of your show, you must do it this way. And as you 15 judges know when we judge, we get a wide variety 16 of ways this is handled including the exhibitor 17 has to enter the class at the end. So what's your 18 pleasure on this one? Anyone in favor? Does 19 anyone want to speak in favor of this? 20 MS. ANDERSON: I have a question. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 22 Question. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Does ADGA 24 officially sanction Best Udder classes? 25 DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 502 1 MS. SENN: Huh-uh (no). 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone 3 want to speak in favor of this? Those in favor 4 will say "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 5 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 7 Abstentions? (None.) This is defeated. 8 Number 15, what are we doing here in this? 9 MR. NICKEL: That was kind of 10 addressed earlier. 11 MS. SENN: Excuse me. Do you know 12 what the proposal does? 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I'm trying 14 to get Bruce to explain this to me. I highlighted 15 some things here a couple of days ago; but I'm not 16 getting the logic of it back. 17 MS. SENN: Daniel. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, Senn. 19 MS. SENN: Our question is that we 20 don't know what the proposal is. And we see that 21 she doesn't like, perhaps like that rule; but we 22 don't see what the proposed change is that she 23 wants to have. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Maybe 25 that's why it is not making sense. Does someone ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 503 1 see something here that we can take action on? 2 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: If we as a 4 group don't see a clear action, we can just pass 5 it on by. 6 MS. DEAN: I move to refer. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, if we 8 just passed it by. 9 MS. SENN: Could we have a motion 10 to refer? 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We don't 12 even need to do that. If we don't see a clear 13 motion, we can just pass it by if you all agree 14 with that. 15 BOARD MEMBERS: Yes. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Number 16 17 has to do with the apprentice judges. And what is 18 the difference here again? 19 MR. NICKEL: In the bottom she is 20 talking about apprentice judges may only judge 21 newly organized shows or shows whose in the past 22 years consisted of less than 200 animals. And she 23 thinks that the newer judges shouldn't be the ones 24 that are only doing the newer shows where there 25 are less animals being shown, that they may not be ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 504 1 putting their best foot forward for ADGA. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I guess I 3 don't see that there; but it may be the intention. 4 The sentence at the bottom is telling us that she 5 thinks these two wordings aren't enough alike. I 6 don't see that they aren't enough like; but if you 7 do, you can do something with it. Bitter. 8 MR. BITTER: I was just going to 9 talk on that. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: But she is 11 wanting to change one to the other. And unless 12 you all think there is a need for that, we're 13 going to pass that one by too if we agree those 14 wordings are enough alike. 15 BOARD MEMBERS: (Agree as a group 16 to pass on Number 16.) 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 18 Page 10 then of the handwritten pages, yes, it's 19 an unusual one to come from Shows. But this is a 20 request from the Show Committee to use different 21 titles for our breeding-up program animals is what 22 it is. Do you want to handle it here? What do 23 you want to do with this? Rowe. 24 DR. DEAN ROWE: Well, I believe 25 that she is bringing it before us as a concept for ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 505 1 the board to consider and to throw out for perhaps 2 Registration to consider, because it's true that 3 many other species have percentage purebred, and 4 in our case we would have percentage American, and 5 that's often a very embraced title by fairs for 6 awarding of premiums. Yes, so I think the 7 direction here would be to ask Registration to 8 have a look at it. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. If 10 it's the consent of the group that we don't have 11 action we need to take, but that this idea should 12 go to the Registration Committee for 13 consideration, we'll leave it at that. Saum. 14 MS. SAUM: On page 65 of the 15 Guidebook, number 7 at the bottom, this came up in 16 the training conference; and I know we all voted 17 for this. But about five lines down it says "If 18 there is no tattoo, the judge shall write 'none.' 19 If the tattoo on the animal does not match the 20 ones on the registration, recordation 21 certificate," blah, blah, blah, you should write 22 "incorrect." We used to write "tattoo illegible 23 on some." If you get a couple, like if the tattoo 24 is A, B, C and you have part of some of those 25 letters. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 506 1 And I guess I would like to make a motion 2 to reinsert that back into the Guidebook, because 3 I know a lot of judges are doing that. I did it 4 erroneously this year, because I hadn't read those 5 new rules; but I really think it has merit. I 6 would like if the tattoo is -- how do I word it? 7 Do you have wording here? 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Now, 9 please. Conversation should be to the group, not 10 side conversations even across the table. So if 11 you are done speaking, we can recognize someone 12 else. 13 MS. SAUM: Okay. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does 15 someone else want to speak on this suggestion that 16 was made by Senn -- or by Saum. Rowe. 17 DR. DEAN ROWE: I'm sorry, Robin. 18 Could you just, because I'm in favor of this; but 19 I'm unclear as to where you're inserting it. 20 MS. SAUM: On page 65, number 7, 21 just a last sentence to that. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. If 23 this is an idea that you aren't ready to introduce 24 a motion on, you could work on your wording and 25 bring it back in new business at the end of the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 507 1 meeting. 2 MS. SAUM: Okay. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It sounds 4 like you're not ready and you don't know exactly 5 what you want right now. There will be a call for 6 new business when we do other work at the end of 7 the meeting. Gustafson. 8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm not completely 9 sure of the procedure, so if I'm out of order, 10 please just forgive me. From membership in my 11 district I have had questions directed to me 12 regarding the National Show show rules as to the 13 awarding of legs, why there is not a Best in Show 14 and where that can be stated in the Guidebook. 15 I'm just stating this for possible future 16 reference work. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The 18 National Show Committee for many years has held 19 with the policy of not having a Best In Show. It 20 could be changed; but I was actually chairman for 21 many years of that committee, and I think the view 22 is probably pretty standard. Yet winning the 23 Grand at National Show is a much greater honor 24 than Best In Show in almost any show. And we 25 really didn't want to have to bring those does ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 508 1 back in the ring, re-udder them and do anything to 2 reduce the effectiveness and the prestige of the 3 win they already achieved. So that's the reason 4 we haven't had that. 5 As far as other rules at National Show 6 there are some rules that are written specifically 7 for National Show, and they have to do with the 8 level of competition, the situations that we face 9 there that have felt to be appropriate. And if 10 there is any rule there that your constituents do 11 not like, the place to take it is to National Show 12 Committee, and you know, explain the rule that you 13 think isn't the way that it should be and ask for 14 it to be changed or considered. And if you don't 15 get a response from the National Show Committee, 16 you could always bring it to the board; but the 17 first approach would be to go to the National Show 18 Committee with whichever rule or rules people do 19 not like and ask for them to be reconsidered 20 there. 21 Yes, we're on Shows. When we get done with 22 Shows we will take a break. I'm being pressed on 23 that one. We will take a break. Daubert. 24 MR. DAUBERT: If you'll look at 25 page seven again of the show rules, number five, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 509 1 it's came up twice to me this year where a senior 2 show opens, they show the junior Alpines, they 3 close the junior show, open the senior show and 4 show the senior Alpines. It would, and I've asked 5 a lot of people what, is this showing one show 6 within another? And I just would like 7 clarification. Is that a show within a show, do 8 we worry about it, do we care? 9 MR. NICKEL: This was not 10 addressed in committee; but according to the rules 11 as I read them that is a show within a show 12 because it's separately sanctioned, and you would 13 have to do -- 14 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I know 15 Bruce is representing the committee chair; but I 16 respectfully disagree with that and will tell you 17 that the -- I don't see that ADGA in the past has 18 had a problem with scheduling a junior and a 19 senior doe show around each other; and as long as 20 each breed is completed and the information that 21 is needed for that breed is prepared, that the 22 next breed can proceed even if it's the next breed 23 of the senior or junior or the buck show. That's 24 the way we've been doing this. Nixon. 25 MS. NIXON: Vivian and I have had ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 510 1 lengthy discussions on this matter on shows within 2 show for 30 years. As I understand a show within 3 a show would be if you had an Alpine show and in 4 that Alpine show you gave two Alpine legs. You 5 would have if you called -- say they used to do 6 specialty shows. There would be an Alpine show, 7 and then within that Alpine, the same classes, the 8 same everything an animal would be able to win two 9 legs on that day in that same sanction. Is that 10 not correct? They would have like or whatever 11 breed, an Alpine show. So you get your first leg. 12 You get two legs in one showing. The animal would 13 only have to come in the ring one time; but it 14 would get two legs. And that is the reference to 15 a show within a show; and that's the intent of 16 this rule is to not allow that to happen. The 17 animal would have to be shown twice to get two 18 legs. Okay? And we just discussed this again 19 about a week ago; and I think that that's still 20 her intent on the rule, 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And I 22 accept that as the generally accepted reasoning 23 for this rule and reading of this rule. Does 24 anyone else want to address this? Bryan. 25 MS. BRYAN: Yes. I think we ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 511 1 really need to address this, because I was in a 2 situation at a state fair a couple of years ago 3 where we had a situation in a separately 4 sanctioned junior doe show of all breeds and 5 senior doe show of all breeds where it came up 6 that we wanted to show the junior does by breed, 7 stop the junior doe show, show the senior doe of 8 the same breed, stop the senior doe show and then 9 show the next breed of junior does. 10 And I was very uncomfortable with that, 11 because I had never been involved with that 12 situation. It has always been my understanding 13 that when we had a junior doe show we showed all 14 the breeds of junior does, we decided the Grand 15 Champion, we did the Best Doe in Show, and then we 16 started the senior doe show. 17 The exhibitors were very upset because they 18 did not know how to udder up their senior does, 19 their milkers. You know, they had does that had 20 been in milk for quite some time because, you 21 know, this was a youth show. You know, I called 22 the office for direction. The office did not know 23 how to direct me. 24 My question is where are we? You know, we 25 need clear direction from the board on what is ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 512 1 here. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Any 3 comments? Strickland then. 4 MS. STRICKLAND: If I'm hearing 5 you correctly, it seems to me you're saying that 6 ADGA should be saying in what order you should be 7 showing juniors and seniors. If you look at all 8 the fairs, they do it a breed at a time, or many 9 of them do. You don't show all your milkers like 10 you do at an open show. You do your group 11 classes. The breed is over. So you're 12 essentially running parallel senior show and 13 junior doe show, not a show within a show. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That 15 certainly, Chris, is the approach that has been 16 taken that if a show committee or a fair wants to 17 set up the handling of the show like that, that 18 ADGA isn't concerned; but there are some people 19 reading this rule to say that it's a problem. 20 Reyna. 21 MS. REYNA: I may be wrong; but it 22 sounds like Chris is talking about a single 23 sanction, and June is talking about double 24 sanction. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. I ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 513 1 think that the sanction of junior and senior does 2 separately are often done. I know they are often 3 done, you know, "parallel" is the word that Chris 4 used; but however you would want to explain it, 5 where you would do the milkers of a breed and then 6 you do the dry does of a breed and then you do the 7 groups of a breed. And some people would say that 8 that is not accepted; but it's done a lot. I 9 believe it is accepted and we have everybody clear 10 on it. Rowe. 11 DR. DEAN ROWE: Yes. In my 12 interpretation you're simply suspending the 13 judging of one before the next breed while you're 14 initiating completing the judging of another 15 sanction, and that these are not within another 16 one. It's one is not going on while the other one 17 is occurring. So fairs, there are a lot of 18 regional differences; and to me it could happen in 19 both open, say, open or combined doe shows and 20 junior/senior sanction. So the order of judging 21 really is not pertinent to the sanctioning or the 22 judging of the show itself. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It looks 24 like most of us are in agreement on that, that 25 that is what we are expecting as a board. And I ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 514 1 guess probably this discussion was useful then 2 because hopefully we can all be together on what 3 is expected and what is allowed. Bryan. 4 MS. BRYAN: Well, maybe included 5 in this discussion then we need to state very 6 clearly, because those show rules stated that the 7 junior doe show would be held, and it listed the 8 breeds and then the senior doe show would be held 9 and it listed the breeds. It did not say anywhere 10 in there that the junior does and senior does of 11 the breed and group classes would be held, and 12 then the junior does and senior does and group 13 classes of the next breed would be held. And we 14 need to make clear direction to the show 15 committees or whomever so the exhibitors know what 16 to expect. And, you know, I am again very 17 concerned that we make clear direction to show 18 committees or whomever that so we know what to 19 expect when we show up at these shows and know how 20 we can plan to manage our animals. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: From what 22 you have stated there, June, my response, I don't 23 think I'm standing out of line. Is that problem 24 you -- the problem that did exist there was that 25 they didn't follow the printed show order; and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 515 1 that is a problem. But you can choose any order 2 that you would like by ADGA's rules I say. Then 3 you must follow them; and maybe that was the 4 confusion in your case there. Senn. 5 MS. SENN: We added a rule in last 6 year that said that the show order must be clearly 7 stated on the sanctioning papers. It's in the 8 rules now that we say it. It is indicated. The 9 order of the show must be indicated. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Hendrickson. 11 MS. HENDRICKSON: I think in 12 June's case that the people who went to this fair 13 need to talk to the show officials there and say 14 "If this is going to be junior doe, senior doe 15 Alpine, group classes, that breed is done, you 16 know, if it's alphabetical like that or something, 17 that they have to clearly state it so all 18 exhibitors are aware, because that is, I mean, 19 basically how it's done in all the fairs out here. 20 You show the complete breed. And yet many of our 21 big fairs do have a separate junior and senior 22 sanction. Like you say, they're running parallel; 23 but that is a thing that the people that put on 24 that show have to have stated for the exhibitors. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 516 1 we've covered that one pretty well. Do we need to 2 discuss that one more? Do you need to? Okay, 3 Dave. 4 MR. DAUBERT: Is it appropriate to 5 ask the Show Committee to look at that to see if 6 there is wording that would make that more clear? 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 8 Anything else in the Show area, or are we ready 9 for a break? We don't need a break yet. All 10 right. Robert Cassette. 11 MR. ROBERT CASSETTE: I'd like to 12 know what is the procedure for changing the show 13 application form? I ran into this this spring; 14 and I was amazed to find that there had been 15 changes made specifically where they were 16 requesting if there was any other shows that were 17 going to be held within a certain number of days 18 at that same location. 19 Now we have, let's say, Memorial Day, we 20 have several shows that go on throughout the 21 weekend. And that application wanted to know, we 22 would have to provide all the information about 23 the other shows. And I was a little amazed; and I 24 got no answer as to how the change was made on the 25 show application sheet from where. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 517 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. That 2 question was brought to me by Bob at the time that 3 he got that request; and I hadn't known about 4 that. Can you respond to that form change, 5 Shirley? 6 MS. MCKENZIE: I do believe in 7 this instance that the chair of the committee 8 working with the Show Department out of the office 9 had directed her that this was a change. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That was 11 the answer that I got as well; and we do want our 12 show -- excuse me -- our committee, committee 13 chairman to be involved and to be giving advice to 14 staff in their area. My thinking is that in this 15 case probably the best judgment wasn't used. And 16 that was a major change that the committee chair 17 should not have directed without some input. But 18 it is what happened this time; and hopefully it 19 wouldn't happen too many times when the committee 20 would not have a better feel for what changes 21 could be made. Harvey Considine. 22 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: While we're 23 on the subject of the show report, could we get 24 away from the ear tattoo on Lamanchas, "right ear, 25 left ear"? It's a simple change; but people look ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 518 1 at me. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Did you 3 hear the comments from Harvey Considine? 4 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 5 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: On the 6 current show report under Lamanchas you have an 7 indication of a right ear and a left ear tattoo; 8 and I wish it could be changed to reflect it's 9 Lamanchas right side or left side or right tail or 10 left tail or something. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Saum. 12 MS. SAUM: I don't think we 13 finished Bob's. I think we need to give direction 14 to the ADGA office to take that, remove that from 15 the show application, if that's what we want to 16 do. When we brought it up we talked about it, and 17 then we tabled it or left it. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is that a 19 motion? 20 MS. SAUM: Yes. 21 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Motion from 22 Robin Saum to remove the questions on the show 23 application that relates to other shows in the 24 area at that time. 25 MS. STRICKLAND: Second. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 519 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have a 2 second from Strickland. Does anyone want to 3 discuss that? 4 MS. BOZZO: Question. 5 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Those in favor 6 will say "aye." 7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 9 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) It carries 10 unanimously. 11 MS. SAUM: Okay. I have wording 12 for the tattoo, page 65. And this is what judges 13 are commonly doing anyway and what we have done in 14 the past. It will be number seven. If you go 15 down, it will be inserted. It will become the 16 first line six. It says "If there is no tattoo, 17 the judge shall write none." Then the next 18 sentence I'm proposing is "If the tattoo on the 19 animal is not legible, then the judge shall write 20 illegible." And then the next line will go on 21 with what is currently in the Guidebook: "If the 22 tattoos on the animal does not match the one on 23 the paper, it's incorrect." 24 MS. SENN: Second. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. The ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 520 1 motion is seconded here from Senn to add another 2 sentence in item 7 L titled Reports that's on page 3 65 of the 2003 Guidebook. Any comments from the 4 committee on that? 5 MR. NICKEL: That's fine. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 7 Those in favor of adding this wording, it's an 8 explanation of what is expected, will say "aye." 9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed no. 11 (None.) Abstentions? (None.) It carries 12 unanimously. We are not done with Shows yet. We 13 don't need a break yet. That's all right. We'll 14 go with Campbell. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: We have a motion to 16 address I think what June was bringing up earlier; 17 and if you'll look on page 57 under (e)(1) just 18 before the end sentence that begins "ADGA official 19 shows," we would like to make a motion to insert 20 the words "when multiple sanctions are offered a 21 complete schedule judging order shall be 22 provided." 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Where is it 24 again? 25 MS. CAMPBELL: Page 57(e)(1) just ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 521 1 before the last statement that begins "Official 2 shows may sanction for the following divisions." 3 And if you'll recognize Ms. Rowe, she has the 4 second. 5 DR. DEAN ROWE: Second. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Rowe 7 seconded it. I'm still trying to -- 8 DR. DEAN ROWE: I can provide 9 background. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. Go 11 ahead. 12 DR. DEAN ROWE: The concern was 13 that the current language addresses the order of 14 judging; and I think the confusion that June was 15 pointing out is that that's implied that that 16 would be within a single sanction; and so we were 17 hoping to clarify by adding an additional sentence 18 that read "When multiple sanctions are offered a 19 complete schedule of judging order shall be 20 provided," and that would provide instruction to 21 shows who have interrupted judging of junior doe, 22 senior doe, et cetera, that that would provide 23 instruction that some sort of complete guidance be 24 available to exhibitors to advise them of how the 25 show would be conducted. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 522 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do you 2 understand this proposal then? The underlined 3 section there, which was a change already last 4 year would still stay. 5 DR. DEAN ROWE: Yes. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: This would 7 be inserted prior to that. 8 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: Or after 9 that. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: After that? 11 Okay. Rowe. 12 DR. DEAN ROWE: I can reread it. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Read 14 it again. Okay. 15 DR. DEAN ROWE: So it currently 16 reads "The order of the show shall be clearly 17 stated in the show's rules submitted to ADGA for 18 sanctioning. If it is not, the order in which the 19 breeds are presented to ADGA for sanctioning will 20 be considered the order of the show." We're 21 requesting that you insert "When multiple 22 sanctions are offered a complete schedule of 23 judging order shall be provided." Then the 24 section would continue as it presently reads. 25 "ADGA official shows may sanction classes for the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 523 1 following breeds:" So the intent it to provide 2 additional instruction that would clarify. We 3 felt the current language addressed, could be 4 interpreted in both ways, but addressed only the 5 issue of within a certain sanction. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Any 7 discussion? Gustafson. 8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Does this change 9 also include to say in the first sentence "The 10 order of the show shall' be"? In my Guidebook it 11 says "should." Are you also proposing that the 12 word "should" should be changed to "shall"? 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. I 14 will recognize Rowe. 15 DR. DEAN ROWE: Recognize 16 Campbell. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Campbell. 18 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm sorry. I was 19 answering another question. What was your 20 question? 21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. Unless I 22 misheard, which is always a distinct possibility, 23 in reading this it was stated "The order of the 24 show 'shall' be clearly stated." In my Guidebook 25 the word is "The order of the show "should" be. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 524 1 MS. CAMPBELL: I think that was 2 just a reading error. 3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. I wanted to 4 clarify whether or not as to adding this sentence 5 in if we're also voting to change that wording, 6 the "should" and the "shall." 7 MS. CAMPBELL: That was a 8 misreading. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Any 10 comments then on the merits of this proposal? 11 Those in favor will say "aye." 12 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 14 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) That one 15 passed unanimously. Are we done with Show 16 business now? Then you get a break. 17 MR. ALTHEIDE: For Robin's motion 18 Director Bryan, Reyna and Morford were absent. 19 And for the last motion Directors Senn and Morford 20 were absent. 21 (Recess.) 22 DANIEL CONSIDINE: We need to 23 start again. We have a little over an hour 24 unless you want to skip lunch. And the next 25 business will be Constitution. We have Betty here ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 525 1 for that. And first there are two major areas of 2 work there or possibly three depending on how you 3 look at it; but the maps that were in the 4 newsletter are being circulated so that you have 5 that in front of you, what that was; but we'll go 6 through the other business first. Okay. 7 MS. HENNING: Good morning 8 everyone. You should have our year-end report 9 before you. Our goals and objectives were 10 primarily to decide on redistricting plan options 11 in time to be included in the second event or 12 second quarter of News & Events, which we did. A 13 copy of that information has been handed out to 14 you today in case you didn't have your second 15 quarter with you. 16 Secondly, we were to discuss and formulate 17 proposals for dealing with bylaws changes 18 necessary as a result of redistricting; and third, 19 to prepare proposals for clarifying, modifying and 20 expediting the complaints process in Article 4 of 21 the constitution. 22 Today I'd like to start with the third item 23 first. And if you'll turn to the second page of 24 the year-end report, you'll see the Decisions 25 Requiring Board Action, number five there. "(a.), ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 526 1 Constitutional changes are necessary to clean up 2 Article 4 of the constitution that presently 3 combines unrelated sections dealing with 4 membership, meetings, complaints and financial 5 responsibility." The proposed changes that I have 6 submitted I have highlighted in red; but they are 7 also underlined, so you should be able to follow 8 along the changes that we have proposed. 9 I just want to state upfront that we did 10 have Bob Beauvais who is an attorney who was 11 responsible for drafting this information. 12 However if this proposal is passed by the board, 13 it will still need to be reviewed by the ADGA 14 attorney prior to its being sent to the membership 15 for adoption. Okay. And if approved by the 16 board, of course, these changes must be presented 17 to the membership for adoption for existing 18 Article 12 of the constitution. So these are 19 proposed constitutional changes. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 21 Procedurally then we have this set of items that 22 are starred one, two, three, four through seven 23 here, now eight, because that's a totally new 24 complaint process; but these other items are the 25 ones that are suggested to be primarily ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 527 1 rearranged, but there is some deletion here too. 2 Are you comfortable? Do you want to go through 3 some of these detail by detail, or what is the way 4 to handle this from the committee? Cassette. 5 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Daniel, I 6 have a question before at least I can move 7 forward. When we're looking at these, and it says 8 "Throughout the constitution change the word 9 secretary-treasurer should be changed over to 10 association manager" I understand in most states, 11 I'm not sure about Missouri, that there must be an 12 officer listed as secretary or at least clerk; and 13 my concern about removing that term under the 14 constitution is are we sure that we're still in 15 compliance with Missouri laws? 16 MS. HENNING: That was an issue 17 that was, you know, not discussed one way or the 18 other, so that may be something that the attorney 19 would need to look at before we do that. All I 20 know is that we are referring to our, to Shirley 21 as our association manager now rather than 22 secretary-treasurer unless she wears two hats. 23 And if she is wearing two hats, I guess that needs 24 to be specified in words. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Just for ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 528 1 information, I believe we did cover in the bylaws 2 a statement that the association manager becomes 3 the secretary-treasurer and handles the duties. 4 So we did it over there; and this committee is 5 recommending that we go to the trouble of changing 6 the wording of the constitution. Campbell. 7 MS. CAMPBELL: That was what I was 8 going to say. We did make the change; and that 9 was one of the reasons, the officer position was 10 one of the reasons that I did not encourage making 11 those changes, that that allows us to keep a 12 position of secretary-treasurer and still make 13 reference to whenever this language is referenced 14 it refers to the association manager. And I think 15 if I can find where it actually changed that, we 16 didn't limit it to the bylaws. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Page 12. 18 MS. CAMPBELL: Let me check. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Item one 20 appears to be one that we will handle separately 21 now then. So I'm saying that we are going to 22 address only that item one at this point and 23 decide what you want to do with that. Daubert. 24 MR. DAUBERT: Page 12, it's under 25 Officers, E. It does refer to the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 529 1 secretary-treasurer. It's just who is holding 2 that position. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Dave has 4 just referenced what I was quoting to you before, 5 which he is giving you a place to look for it. If 6 you feel that that change, which was a change made 7 last year of course when we created this title, is 8 adequate, you may not feel it's necessary to go to 9 the membership with a change in the constitution; 10 but you need to decide that here whether we want 11 to change all those statements in the constitution 12 or whether we leave those alone and feel this is 13 enough. Reyna. 14 MS. REYNA: I think it's a 15 non issue and we should leave it alone. I so 16 move. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone 18 want to speak in support of making the changes as 19 suggested by the committee? We're going to vote 20 on item one only then. Item one is that 21 throughout the constitution the word 22 "secretary-treasurer" should be changed to 23 "association manager." Those in favor will say 24 "aye." (None.) Opposed "no." 25 BOARD MEMBERS: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 530 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Abstentions? 2 MS. WEAVER: Abstain. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have an 4 abstention from Weaver and no others; and so this 5 one has been defeated. 6 And then let's go to the next one and look 7 at that item. That would be the membership 8 sections would be deleted and then both sections 9 are relisted somewhere else. Is that what happens 10 to them? 11 MS. BOZZO: Not all of them, it 12 doesn't look like. 13 MS. HENNING: These are 14 essentially moved to the Article 10 which is on 15 your next page, the new article on Complaints. 16 Some of them are moved down to Article 6 on 17 Meetings. Okay. Article 4, Section 2, Section 3, 18 Section 10, 11, 12, 13. Or no. That's Article 4, 19 Section 2 and 3 are moved down to Article 6. So 20 they're still in there, but no wording changes. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: This is 22 confusing enough. Maybe we need to go step by 23 step through that then. And rather than start 24 there with number two, possibly we can look at 25 only the Section 2 and Section 3, and we can agree ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 531 1 that we would like those put in a different order 2 in the constitution. But those, the suggestion 3 from the committee is that 2 and 3 will be worded 4 exactly as they are now, and that they would just 5 be in this new section titled Meetings which would 6 be prior to the section entitled Elections. Do 7 you want to do those two? Let's take just those 8 two. Shall we move Section 2 and Section 3 into a 9 new Article 6? Discussion of that? Robin Saum, 10 speak to this. 11 MS. SAUM: I'm not clear what 12 we're moving to where. It says delete these 2 13 through 11 from Article 4. Where are they going 14 to? It doesn't say that down here though. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, some 16 of them are going to be deleted, because the ones 17 referring to complaints will be deleted and 18 replaced with a new complaint procedure. As I see 19 it they are placing the other ones that aren't 20 having to do with complaints somewhere else. 21 Daubert. 22 MR. DAUBERT: There is no section 23 in the constitution on Meetings. So that's being 24 created; and everything relating to meetings is 25 being pulled out of the other sections and put ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 532 1 there. Everything related to complaints that are 2 in sections are being pulled out and put in a new 3 section on Complaints is what Betty had said. 4 It's just realigning things so that they're in a 5 better, easier to find and makes more sense. 6 MS. SAUM: Is anything being 7 deleted at all? 8 MS. HENNING: Yes. There are 9 things being deleted. Articles 4 through 11 are 10 being deleted; but they are being replaced by the 11 new language that is in the new complaint section. 12 Okay. So you can't -- it's very difficult to take 13 this piecemeal and have it make sense, because the 14 new complaints, the new complaint section requires 15 that these other things be rearranged and deleted 16 first. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: There are 18 some major rearrangements requested here; and 19 that's why I was trying to look at them item by 20 item. And therefore if you look at what happens 21 under the current Article 4, there is no change in 22 Section 1. Section 2 and 3 are the ones that I 23 was trying to get us to handle; but it is true 24 that you have to agree that you want there to be a 25 Meetings article. And if we want a Meetings ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 533 1 article, these do go through. So that's what we 2 are trying to do now. Do you want there to be a 3 separate Meetings article? Rowe. 4 DR. DEAN ROWE: Might I suggest 5 that we deal with the Complaint section first 6 since that is the one that requires major change 7 of language. If we come to an agreement on a 8 Complaint section, then numbers two through seven 9 can pass in their entirety without much further 10 discussion. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I can 12 change the presentation by consent; and I don't 13 see anyone objecting to that. So the star 8 then 14 is where you go, which is the next page; and that 15 is a new article titled Complaints, and it is a 16 new procedure. And this was a major item that 17 this committee was asked to address that's been 18 hanging around for many years now, probably 10 19 years since we knew we had a little problem with 20 this one. It is different. It is somewhat 21 parallel to the procedure that we had, but it's 22 spelled out much clearer and it's different. Do 23 you want to talk about it at all? 24 MS. HENNING: I hope that you have 25 had a chance to read through this and compare it ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 534 1 with the existing process. That's why we worked 2 so hard to get this wording to you in a timely 3 manner. And if you have specific questions about 4 it, I'll be happy to deal with those. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Berry 6 first. 7 MS. BERRY: This is clearly a vast 8 improvement. You can take that from somebody who 9 has read through this a million times and had to 10 use it; but I do have one question. And that is 11 on Section 14. "The decision of the Hearing Panel 12 will be final and exhaust administrative 13 remedies." What administrative remedies does that 14 entail or cover? 15 MS. HENNING: Again, this is 16 language that Bob came up with. 17 MS. BERRY: Okay. 18 MS. HENNING: And again, that may 19 be something that the attorney would want to look 20 at. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bryan. 22 MS. BRYAN: I like Lelia want to 23 commend the committee on the work that you have 24 done. This is something that has been very much 25 needed; and I appreciate the effort. And I'm ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 535 1 certain that we will make remarks that do not 2 sound appreciative before it's over with. But 3 initially I do want to tell you that I know how 4 much work has gone into this, and we do very much 5 appreciate the effort that is here. 6 I guess my initial comment would be would 7 it not be wiser to put less in the constitution 8 and more in the bylaws so that we do not find 9 ourselves in the position later that we're in now? 10 And that's just a comment for thought. I don't 11 know how much that was discussed in your 12 committee. 13 MS. HENNING: I think that Bob and 14 certainly myself felt that this is a process that 15 requires pretty strict legal guidelines, and that 16 it was important to have it in the constitution, 17 you know, that they are minor pieces of the 18 complaint that in the past have been in the 19 bylaws; but the bulk of that has always been in 20 the constitution and probably is a good reason for 21 having it there. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Cassette 23 next then. 24 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Once again 25 like Lelia and June, we need this so much. And ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 536 1 I'm not as concerned with how much is in the 2 constitution. But there are I see here four major 3 changes to the way we deal with it. I'd like to 4 comment on each one if you have it and if you will 5 permit that. First of all, Section 3, it changes 6 the fee. Not a big deal as far as I'm concerned. 7 $10, $25. It's fine. It increases it. 8 The second change is this position, which I 9 ask you to comment on, is that of a hearing 10 officer. And I do see it does state who can be 11 that. I'm a little concerned there if we're not 12 really talking about a mediation officer that 13 typically courts use, and is the discussion within 14 committee having a professional person who does 15 that all the time, or are we looking at an actual 16 ADGA member to do that? 17 Item number three of the changes -- 18 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Phil, could 19 we -- I appreciate the discussion. But could she 20 address them one at a time and come back to you? 21 The first question then has to do with the hearing 22 officer position. 23 MS. HENNING: The hearing officer 24 could be a person completely outside of ADGA or 25 within ADGA depending upon what the EC decides to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 537 1 do. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is that 3 enough? 4 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: That's okay. 5 The other two points that we're changing is that 6 we are changing over the process then creating a 7 hearing panel that is moving forward, and the 8 hearing panel being very specific as to who can be 9 on the hearing panel. And once again, I'm not 10 sure why. And I would like some input on why are 11 we saying that the hearing panel must be three 12 directors? What is the committee discussion on 13 why we're making it that specific as opposed to 14 three members of longstanding or other criteria 15 that might be used? 16 MS. HENNING: There was no 17 specific discussion in committee regarding this 18 matter. Bob came up with the wording, and no one 19 in the committee commented on it. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone 21 want to? Okay. Phil had more questions. And 22 we'll go back to any of you picking up on these 23 details. But we'll get -- you have one more then. 24 Right? 25 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Yes. Just ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 538 1 one. My last part, which was what Lelia started 2 to say, this is a significant change in the fact 3 that the Hearing Panel will have a final say. And 4 here is my biggest objection to the way this is 5 set up. I believe that our members deserve the 6 right of representation. That is what we all as 7 directors are elected to do, to represent the 8 members; and to relegate or delegate that 9 authority and responsibility to a panel of three I 10 am very uncomfortable with. The last question I 11 have is what was the actual committee vote for 12 bringing this forward to the board? 13 MS. HENNING: That was in the 14 mid-year report. I do not have that in front of 15 me; but you should have it. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. So I 17 think Phil has zeroed in on significant changes 18 here. And it is appropriate to discuss these 19 changes. And if there is an item of change that 20 you would like differently, you as a board could 21 submit a different wording for that part of the 22 procedure. Reyna. 23 MS. REYNA: I agree with Phil on 24 two of these; and specifically, but perhaps for 25 different reasons. I have some problem with this ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 539 1 Hearing Committee being necessarily appointed by 2 the EC, because there is a possibility that the EC 3 can be the complaining party and it would be a 4 conflict of interest. 5 But the one I'm really concerned about is 6 the same one Lelia mentioned, and that is 14. I 7 would feel that any member should have the right 8 to come to the board if they do not feel 9 comfortable or feel that in some way they have not 10 been represented properly at the hearing level. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is there 12 anyone who feels strongly enough about Section 14 13 to propose a changed wording for that? Campbell. 14 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm not sure I'm 15 answering your question. But my question is 16 "administrative remedies" is actually legal 17 language; and my understanding is that includes an 18 appeal process. I could be incorrect; but I 19 understood but the legal definition of "remedies" 20 should include an appeal process. That's my... 21 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bryan. 22 MS. BRYAN: I believe that by our 23 chairman's statement that this is not ready to go 24 to the membership, because she said that our 25 attorney needed to review this before it could go ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 540 1 any further; and I am certainly not comfortable 2 voting on it the way it is right here. I don't 3 know that I want to wait another year either to, 4 you know, sit with it. I would like to see this 5 come back to us. I think it needs some more work, 6 possibly a postal ballot with some EC input with 7 some direction to the committee. I think we have 8 some good ideas here; but I see some issues that I 9 think have been brought out by Phil and by others 10 on the board. We definitely have a wonderful 11 starting point here, and we do need input I think 12 now from our attorney before we can go any 13 further. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, my 15 comment procedurally on that, June, is that I 16 would like to know what the board really wants 17 Section 14 to read. I feel that the board does 18 not like this wording; and we need to take 19 whatever idea we have to our attorney and get the 20 proper wording, but we don't know what the idea 21 that you feel is appropriate here is. Does the 22 majority of this group on Section 14 want there to 23 be recourse to the full board? That's what we 24 have. Saum. 25 MS. SAUM: I have several issues ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 541 1 with it; but to address Section 14 and also the 2 dates, the time frame, like the 15 days, that's 3 not very long. If you're on vacation when your 4 complaint comes, 15 days is not very long. If 5 Shirley is at the National Show, 15 days isn't 6 very long. And I would like to see those dates 7 more in line with like the judge's complaints. 8 If you go to page 91 in the Guidebook, 9 Sections 2, 3 and 4, it addresses Section 14 of 10 their proposal. It says that it would be like the 11 Hearing Panel can recommend a course of action 12 directly to the board of directors instead of the 13 Hearing Panel being the final decision. I think 14 it's just as clean in the Judge's section about 15 the dates and the way things are mailed as what it 16 was here that they have proposed. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You don't 18 have a specific proposal. You just believe that 19 the language should be similar to that? 20 MS. SAUM: I think the language 21 should be similar to the dates and stuff specified 22 there and it should go back to the committee and 23 let them build on it and come back with a little 24 bit better, different proposal. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 542 1 else have any comments or any specifics? Yes, 2 Senn. 3 MS. SENN: I don't have a 4 specific. I have a question is what it is. I 5 just want to make sure I'm understanding then, 6 that this would be a remedy for any complaint. 7 That is, if somebody files a complaint for $25, we 8 have to fly or make arrangements to bring in three 9 directors from another area for this Hearing 10 Panel? I mean, we're talking about expension 11 (SIC) expending of money in the reality of it when 12 you go through that. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, 14 Karen, I think that you haven't got a couple of 15 the details quite right there. 16 MS. SENN: That's why I asked. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Right. And 18 it is a little confusing. It's so different than 19 what we've got that you have to zero in. I 20 highlighted some of these things so I could find 21 them myself; but I think the Section 6 addresses 22 your question of do we have to spend a lot of 23 money, because Section 6 addresses what happens 24 after the complaint is sent to the person 25 complained against and the response comes in. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 543 1 Then the Executive Committee will assign "either" 2 a hearing officer or a standing committee first. 3 That's the first step. 4 MS. SENN: I didn't highlight that 5 one. I'm sorry. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Sure. And 7 we don't get to the other process until later. If 8 the people involved in the complaint don't accept 9 the ruling of the hearing officer or the committee 10 who handled it, then we go on to that other step. 11 And the other point that was made there is 12 that it was specifically stated that it would be 13 at the Annual Meeting, or there would be a delay 14 possibly; but if we go to the hearing panel, three 15 directors, it would happen at the Annual Meeting 16 or a special meeting of the board. Okay. Dean. 17 MS. DEAN: I just wanted to point 18 out that somewhere either in Section 3 or in 19 Section 6 or possibly both it needs to be 20 determined who deems the complaint appropriate. 21 It really does not specifically state who deems 22 the complaint to be appropriate. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Somewhere I 24 thought that that was clearly delegated to the 25 Executive Committee; but I see that wording in ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 544 1 that item doesn't do that. Okay. In number 3 it 2 isn't clear. So that's a comment that probably we 3 need to have it clearer in 3 who makes that 4 judgment call. That certainly was an issue in the 5 past. Strickland. 6 MS. STRICKLAND: Unless I'm 7 incorrect, I believe that 6 addresses that in 8 terms of once the complaint and the sides of the 9 complaint are put together then the EC assigns the 10 complaint; and I believe then it's the hearing 11 officer or the standing committee then that would 12 determine whether the complaint could go forward. 13 My other comment, on Section 14 it would be 14 pretty simple just to change that to just say "the 15 recommendation of the hearing panel will be 16 advisory to the board" or something along those 17 lines instead of "will be final and exhaust all." 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I'm ready 19 to take that motion if that's what you're wanting. 20 MS. BOZZO: Can she repeat the 21 motion for me? 22 MR. CASSETTE: Campbell has the 23 motion. 24 MS. STRICKLAND: She has the 25 motion. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 545 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We are 2 going to refer to Linda with wording here. All 3 right. 4 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm working on 5 something here. Would it be acceptable for me to 6 amend a number of these sections all in one 7 proposed amendment? Would you accept that? Could 8 I at least try that? If it doesn't go, I'll come 9 back individually just to facilitate, please. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: (Nods 11 affirmatively.) 12 MS. CAMPBELL: All references to 13 15 days be changed to 30 days. I have Section 4, 14 5 and 10, unless I've missed a section, so that 15 would be that revision. Section 14 would state 16 "The hearing panel will recommend a course of 17 action to the board of directors," again using 18 Robin's recommendation to use the earlier language 19 we have with Judges. So we've addressed the dates 20 and the decision. Excuse me. One more. In 21 Section 3: "In the event the complaint is deemed 22 justified by the EC the deposit will be returned 23 to the complaining party." So I've addressed that 24 responsibility, the days and the hearing panel's 25 responsibility. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 546 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 2 Maybe that will work. What do we think of this? 3 Do we have a second, by the way? 4 MR. DAUBERT: Second. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 6 Daubert. Discussion on the proposal to change a 7 handful of items as presented by the committee? 8 Daubert. 9 MR. DAUBERT: Linda, would you 10 accept changing Section 9 to read "90 days" and 11 also the second date in Section 10 to also read 12 "30 days"? 13 MS. CAMPBELL: The 90 days is 14 acceptable. I think that -- does that parallel? 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: "45" will 16 change to "90" in Section 9. 17 MS. CAMPBELL: And you want 30 18 days for the resolution. That's acceptable. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The one 20 currently reads "10" would also read "30" then. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. That's 22 acceptable. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 10 days 24 will go to 30 days. All right. A handful of 25 number changes here to allow more time, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 547 1 clarification is included on when the complaint is 2 justified in Section 3, and a very significant 3 change in intent on Section 14. That's what we 4 have all in one here. Morford. 5 MS. MORFORD: On Section 9 I think 6 that 90 days would be too much. People who are 7 waiting to have some kind of resolution, I would 8 think 60 would be better than 90. That's two 9 months. Three months seems to be a long time. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. The 11 proposal is before you as 90; and it is the risk 12 we take by trying to do too many things at once 13 that we won't get any them at all possibly. 14 MS. CAMPBELL: I'll accept it at 15 60 days, because that does give us 15 days 16 additionally to what the proposal in the other 17 area I was trying to do. 60 days. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. So 19 the maker and the second both agree with the 60 20 days? Okay. 45 becomes not 90, but 60 in this 21 material. Okay. 22 MS. STRICKLAND: So then what 23 you're doing here by putting the reference to the 24 EC in Section 3 is saying that all the complaints 25 will go through the EC before anyone else hears ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 548 1 them. Do you want the EC to screen the complaints 2 and decide if they're justified before going to a 3 hearing officer or panel? 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 5 That's exactly what is stated by this change. 6 Does anyone want to address that? Hendrickson. 7 MS. HENDRICKSON: If that is going 8 to be the procedure, I do think we need to add 9 another section that if an EC member or EC as a 10 whole is being, is a part of the complaint, that 11 they cannot deem whether it's worthy to pursue it. 12 I mean, we could pass what we've said here; but I 13 think we need to add something on to the end of 14 that, because if the EC is involved in the 15 complaint itself, I mean, they just about have to 16 recuse themselves. Who else is going to do it 17 after that? 18 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna. 19 MS. REYNA: I have a couple of 20 problems here with Section 3. One is there is a 21 time frame for everything else; but there is no 22 time frame between a complaint being -- no. It 23 does say within receipt of a complaint something 24 will happen. But there really isn't a -- it 25 doesn't say how long it can be held before ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 549 1 somebody deems that it is justified. 2 The second thing is I've always kind of 3 wondered how someone deems something justified or 4 not when there hasn't been any investigation at 5 all pursued. And I think Chris was just on the 6 verge of saying that, or she did say it. That's 7 what I heard her say, that if the Executive 8 Committee did as it says here in six depending on 9 the nature and complexity, they assign the 10 complaint to a hearing officer. 11 A hearing officer would not have to be 12 somebody very expensive. It could be another 13 director or but to do this basic investigation, 14 decide whether this complaint at that point is 15 really justifiable and then go on to whatever is 16 necessary. To look at a complaint and say "Well, 17 this is justified" or "not justified" has always 18 seemed to me a bit simplistic. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I now see 20 happening what I feared would happen. So I'd like 21 to rule that we're not handling this as one 22 proposal. We are going to proceed with this, -- 23 MS. CAMPBELL: I don't think you 24 can do that. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: -- with the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 550 1 item that was just addressed, and we need to 2 decide if you want the wording added to Section 3 3 that the EC will deem it justified. And in 4 response to Shari's question on timing, there is a 5 timing required in Section 14, so that is covered. 6 But I don't think we're clearly together on 7 whether we want the EC wording included there. So 8 let's handle that first. 9 MS. SAUM: We already have a 10 motion. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I am 12 splitting the motion. 13 MS. CAMPBELL: So you may do that, 14 of course. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And I'm 16 proceeding with the complaint that's being 17 justified by the EC, that wording. That's what 18 we're handling now. So we need to discuss just 19 that at this point. Rowe. Campbell. 20 MS. CAMPBELL: I was just going to 21 speak to that by covering one issue I believe 22 Chris raised. It could actually say the complaint 23 is deemed justified unless the EC is a party in 24 the complaint, and that would be either the 25 complaining party or the complainant (SIC) ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 551 1 respondent. It would cover either. Then they 2 cannot make the determination, the board. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, 4 please. 5 MS. HENNING: I'd like to comment 6 on this issue; and I think part of the reason that 7 this is not in the wording in Section 3 is because 8 we felt that the legitimacy of the complaint 9 should be handled by the hearing officer or the 10 standing committee responsible for that particular 11 area, which is pretty much in line with how 12 complaints processes are handled with judges and 13 registration and so on and so forth. So I think 14 this is a continuation of past procedure not to 15 have it in 3; but if you want to have specific 16 wording to that effect, I would suggest that you 17 look at Section 6. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. That 19 is the item we're trying to resolve though. The 20 proposal has come in the form of a motion. We 21 just a minute ago saw the maker of the motion had 22 additional verbiage. Is that agreeable to the 23 second? 24 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. So ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 552 1 the verbiage that I believe we have now is the 2 complaint is deemed justified by the Executive 3 Committee unless the Executive Committee is 4 involved. So that phrase is what you need to 5 decide if you want or don't want at this point. 6 Bozzo. 7 MS. BOZZO: She referred to 8 Section 6. So if the EC is involved, if we look 9 at Section 6, the EC still gets to assign the 10 hearing officer, if I'm reading this right. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think 12 that 6 and 7 refer to the Executive Committee 13 having the responsibility to pick the officer or 14 which committee gets it. And in the case that a 15 hearing committee, which would be lower down, the 16 hearing committee is not up here. The hearing 17 committee would be what happens after the standing 18 committee or hearing officer, that the EC is 19 restricted from assigning that to someone who is 20 involved, which is logical. But whether or not, 21 it still isn't addressed I don't think, whether or 22 not you like the idea that the EC is going to look 23 at these first to decide if we spend ADGA 24 resources on these things, and that's what this, 25 these wordings that we've added here would do. It ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 553 1 would mean that we wouldn't automatically proceed 2 with every complaint, that there could be some 3 complaints that we deem to be so spurious that the 4 EC would not proceed. And you could clearly give 5 the EC authority to make the determination that 6 this wasn't a worthwhile complaint. Strickland 7 first. 8 MS. STRICKLAND: If that is the 9 interpretation, then it would seem to me that the 10 assignment to the EC really should go down here 11 where they are assigning the complaint to a 12 hearing officer, that you have to give the 13 association manager these times frames to collect 14 all the information. 15 We saw time and time again as a board 16 things that came to us to determine if we should 17 proceed with a complaint when we had only one side 18 of the picture. We never had all of that. And so 19 I think -- I think. I know that this was written 20 to address a time frame so that all that 21 information could be gathered and then a 22 determination of whether it should move forward to 23 a hearing officer by the EC. I think this is 24 almost a sequential kind of thing. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. What ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 554 1 we're trying to do, Chris, is decide whether to 2 add these words. Do you want these words added or 3 not? It's not clear to me. 4 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. You 6 think we should not add the phrase that is 7 suggested by Campbell and Daubert? 8 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna. 10 MS. REYNA: Daniel, respectfully, 11 I think you misspoke when you said that the EC, 12 this case would be deciding whether ADGA would use 13 ADGA resources to pursue the complaint. And I 14 think that's, if I hear Betty correctly, that 15 wasn't the intent. 16 It says nowhere here that a hearing officer 17 is going to be paid nor that they're going to 18 travel anywhere. What it says is that the EC 19 depending upon the complexity will assign this to 20 somebody to pursue. If it is a very simple thing, 21 a director or another person could be assigned as 22 a hearing officer. They are a volunteer as we are 23 now, and they could be in a position rather than 24 the staff who is paid to gather some information 25 and to decide for it to be pursued or not. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 555 1 To say that at the moment that this is 2 passed from the EC hands it's using ADGA resources 3 in terms of money I think is misleading. Am I 4 correctly understanding you, Betty? 5 MS. HENNING: Yes, Shari. And if 6 you look at Section 8, I think it is very clear 7 that we feel that the major portion of this could 8 be handled by teleconference or other means that 9 involve relatively minor expenses. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I guess you 11 can probably -- you are probably correct in that 12 it was probably overstated. The initial 13 expenditure of ADGA resources is in telephone, 14 mail and volunteer time; and that's really what I 15 was referring to, and it probably was overstated. 16 But the issue is still there that if we accept 17 this, the EC is to decide to see it or not. 18 That's what you would do if you accepted the added 19 verbiage here. Cassette. 20 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Chris has a 21 point. And so I'm going to address this to Linda 22 Campbell and Dave Daubert as maker of the motion 23 and second. I having now this is my tenth year on 24 the Executive Committee, I have looked at way too 25 many complaints including this past year that we ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 556 1 all have seen but we don't have the information. 2 What I'm hoping that Linda will do is take her 3 wording in that last sentence of Number 3 and move 4 that to a new section after Number 5. We really 5 need to have somebody who is -- who a complaint 6 has been filed against have an opportunity to 7 respond, and based on that information that a 8 determination is being made. 9 And if what the motion is is to change the 10 wording in Number 3, I really have a problem with 11 it, because you're doing it without any 12 information on the person filed against. So if it 13 would move that sentence into after Number 5 so 14 we've done the proper investigation, then if it's 15 deemed, then we can go on with Number 6 and 16 forward. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. A 18 suggestion by Cassette to the maker that the 19 second sentence as I read your suggestion, the 20 entire second sentence with the added words be 21 placed more in this sequence. Is that right? 22 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: And a new 23 section after 5. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: But the 25 whole second sentence just goes away there and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 557 1 gets moved with the added words. Is that 2 acceptable to the maker? 3 MS. CAMPBELL: I didn't think it 4 precluded it where it was; and that was my thought 5 process that that could happen. But if that would 6 make it more clear, that would support the concept 7 that I was trying to promote. So I'll accept the 8 move to that location. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Accepted by 10 the second? 11 MR. DAUBER: Yes. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So we then 13 have a slightly different situation here. Now 14 we're looking at the same suggestion from Campbell 15 and Daubert; but we're also moving that whole 16 sentence and we're making a section, a new Section 17 7. Is that where you would place it? 18 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Under 19 Section 6. 20 MS. HENNING: Six. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: That would be after 22 Section 5. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That 24 section would become new Section 6. So that's 25 what we're addressing right now. Do we want to do ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 558 1 this or not? Bryan. 2 MS. BRYAN: I'm sorry. But I 3 think this is much too important to be doing in 4 this manner; and I would move to refer this to the 5 EC and the Constitution Committee to bring back to 6 us with the input of our attorney by postal 7 ballot. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Motion to 9 refer. Do we have a second? 10 MR. ALTHEIDE: Second. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Altheide, 12 second on the motion to refer. Discussion now is 13 on the merits of continuing discussion on this 14 material or stopping discussion on the material 15 titled New Complaints. Cassette. 16 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: We just 17 spent an hour and a half of our time on the Show 18 Committee; and there was no value to that. We 19 need to make some time. This is the most 20 important thing that we will do for our membership 21 is dealing with this complaint process. Please do 22 not refer this until we can get some more work 23 done in this section. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Does anyone 25 else wish to speak to the motion to refer? I ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 559 1 think we have a roll call vote here. Hand vote? 2 Those in favor of referring raise your hand. 3 BOARD MEMBERS: (Raising hands.) 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bozzo, 5 Anderson, Bryan, Altheide, Goddard. Those opposed 6 raise your hand. 7 BOARD MEMBERS: (Raising hands.) 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Abstentions? 9 All right. We are not referring. We are 10 continuing to do something with this motion. 11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Abstention here. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Abstention 13 here? Sorry. Abstention by Gustafson. Is there 14 another one? Daubert is abstaining? No. Just 15 one abstention then. 16 COURT REPORTER: Could I have the 17 "yes" votes again. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The "yes"es 19 again is Bozzo -- I didn't see Kempe before -- 20 Anderson, Bryan, Altheide, Goddard, five of them. 21 COURT REPORTER: Okay. Thank you. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The 23 question has been called. I'm not taking that 24 question until I'm sure that everybody is clear 25 here. What we want and what we would do is we ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 560 1 would move the second sentence of 3 and make a new 2 section, and we are adding this by the Executive 3 Committee unless the EC is involved. Are you okay 4 with that? All right. Then we will go to the 5 question. Those in favor will say "aye." 6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 8 "no." 9 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: "No" from 11 where? Hendrickson. Any other "nos"? Any 12 abstentions? (None.) We have done that. We have 13 now added that verbiage about EC. We've replaced 14 it. 15 There were three sections to the proposal 16 from Campbell and Daubert. We'll go to the second 17 one. The second one had to do with changing all 18 these time frames. And the time frames were 19 changed as I have it that anyplace there was a 15 20 day or a 10 day it becomes 30 days, and anywhere 21 in the one place I believe that was 45 that 22 becomes 60. Okay. Are we all comfortable with 23 that? Those in favor of changing those time 24 frames will say "aye." 25 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 561 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 2 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) That's 3 unanimous. 4 Then the other change was that the hearing 5 panel recommendation, this would be Section 6 14, -- 7 MS. HENNING: Which would now be 8 15. 9 DANIEL CONSIDINE: -- okay, it 10 would now be 15. That's right. The hearing panel 11 recommendation is a recommendation -- restate the 12 wording, maker, please. Campbell. 13 MS. CAMPBELL: "The hearing panel 14 will recommend a course of action to the board of 15 directors." 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And that 17 replaces the wording that is now there. Everyone 18 comfortable with that? Those in favor say "aye." 19 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 21 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) Okay. That 22 got that much done. Bozzo. 23 MS. BOZZO: Okay. In reference I 24 know Pat wanted someone, that the EC obviously you 25 don't want them to handle their own complaints. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 562 1 How about, someone help me with the word here, if 2 it's the EC involved, then the -- did we vote on 3 this and I missed it? 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You could 5 be adding more words; but we certainly did 6 something more. There was something there. Do 7 you still want the microphone here, Kristi, or are 8 we okay? 9 Okay. What we did was we added wordage to 10 the second sentence of 3 that as far as justifying 11 the complaint that the EC could not be making that 12 decision if they were involved. So we did it 13 there. Okay. 14 MS. BOZZO: My intent was to say 15 who is going to make the determination that the 16 complaint is justified if the EC is involved; and 17 my suggestion would be to forward it to the 18 association attorney to justify a complaint 19 against the EC was involved. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's a 21 comment from Bozzo. It wasn't a motion. Do we 22 have anyone that wants to take up that comment? 23 Okay. 24 Now -- we'll get to you Dave -- just to 25 understand procedurally where we are, we are ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 563 1 trying to adopt this new complaints procedure. We 2 have now changed the new complaint procedure; but 3 we haven't adopted it yet. Are we ready to adopt 4 it? Do we need to change anything else? Okay. 5 Daubert had his hand up. Daubert first. 6 MR. DAUBERT: I move we adopt star 7 8, Article 10, Complaint. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do we have 9 a second on that? No second. Then what else do 10 we need to do then? Altheide. 11 MR. ALTHEIDE: I still have a 12 problem with 13, which was one of the ones that 13 Phil brought up. We're saying that a hearing 14 panel can only consist of directors; and I think 15 that sends a wrong membership -- or a wrong 16 message to the membership that they're not 17 qualified to serve on a hearing panel. And I also 18 find it a bit contradictory with 7 which says a 19 member can serve as a hearing officer. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Henning. 21 MS. HENNING: Okay. By the time 22 we get to the issues involved in old Section 13, 23 now 14, this has already been through a hearing 24 process. There is nothing that says that any 25 nonmember of ADGA or anyone else may be a part of ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 564 1 the -- may be a hearing officer or a part of a 2 standing committee for that matter that is 3 appropriate to whatever the issue is. 4 Secondly, just as a comment, having spent a 5 lot of time this year working with this 6 information, even if a complaint is directly 7 involving the Executive Committee I don't think it 8 necessarily precludes the ability of the Executive 9 Committee to make a wise decision on referral to a 10 hearing officer or a standing committee. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. So 12 the question from George Altheide had to do with 13 this process that is, you know, down in the list 14 of processes. It would be the last step before 15 going to the board, that group right there. 16 George is concerned that it can only be directors. 17 This is the response of the committee. Does 18 someone else want to take that up? Bryan. 19 MS. BRYAN: I don't want to 20 comment on that. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 22 MS. BRYAN: Am I out of order? 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. If 24 no one else does, we proceed. 25 MR. BRYAN: Okay. My comment is ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 565 1 to go back to Number 6. I would remind the board 2 that this is the constitution; and we will not 3 have a chance next year to clean up what we didn't 4 finish this year. The new Number 6 that we have 5 put in we have not finished in my mind. We have 6 said that if the EC has not -- is a party to it, 7 you know, then they cannot make a ruling. So we 8 need to finish it. And I will -- 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 10 That's the issue that Kristi was bringing up. We 11 do have two different things we need to possibly 12 resolve here. 13 MS. BRYAN: I will yield to 14 Campbell. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Campbell. 16 MS. CAMPBELL: I was going to 17 propose, and I will move that we add the sentence 18 "In the event the Executive Committee is involved 19 the board of directors will make the 20 determination." 21 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Second. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's a 23 motion and second by Campbell and Cassette to add 24 the words that the board of directors will handle 25 this if the EC is involved. That's the intent of ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 566 1 this motion. Okay. Everyone okay with that one? 2 Those in favor will say "aye." 3 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 5 "no." (None.) All right. We've got new verbiage 6 now on Number 6. We'll do Number 7. Saum. 7 COURT REPORTER: Any abstentions? 8 (None.) 9 MS. SAUM: On 13 to address 10 George's issue I move that we change the word 11 "directors" to "members." On Section 13, "The 12 Executive Committee will appoint three members." 13 It's the new 14. It says 13 in your book. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. This 15 is a proposal to amend this before you by Saum. 16 Do we have a second on that? 17 MS. BOZZO: Second. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: A second 19 here from Bozzo. And that's what we discussed at 20 this point then. Do you want the word "directors" 21 changed to "members"? Bryan. 22 MS. BRYAN: Could we hear from the 23 chairman what the specific thought was that 24 limited this to "directors"? 25 MS. HENNING: Again, this was, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 567 1 this is wording that Bob put together that was 2 consistent with the complaints process wording in 3 the past; and there was no discussion in 4 committee, you know, concerning it. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Strickland. 6 MS. STRICKLAND: The rationale 7 behind the three directors, if you look at the new 8 Section 13, "If either or both parties rejects the 9 proposed resolution," so this is what the hearing 10 officer or hearing panel has come up with, "then 11 that information is conveyed to the Executive 12 Committee and they will set a hearing at the next 13 annual meeting." 14 So we're saying that the information has 15 been gathered. It's gone to a hearing officer or 16 panel. They've tried to come to a resolution. If 17 both parties aren't agreeing to the resolution, 18 the Executive Committee is informed. They then 19 set a second hearing at the Annual Meeting. And 20 it's more logical that your directors are going to 21 be there at that Annual Meeting; and then they 22 will hear further information or whatever and then 23 make the recommendation to the board. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I take it 25 that that is a comment in support of the original ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 568 1 wording. 2 MS. STRICKLAND: Yes. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 4 Morford. 5 MS. MORFORD: I also think it's a 6 little clearer to have representatives of the 7 Association rather than members do it kind of to 8 take the heat off members out there at large 9 rather than an actual representative. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 11 Discussion from Hendrickson. 12 MS. HENDRICKSON: I still think it 13 could be amended to say "or members," "directors 14 or members"; and that way it leaves it open that 15 if you do have a member that is knowledgeable in a 16 field of whatever the complaint is, they could be 17 part of that process. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 19 Reyna had her hand up. We'll work around here. 20 MS. REYNA: There is one more 21 practical reason why these should be directors; 22 and that is should there be questions about -- at 23 this point it says that the three directors will 24 conduct a record review of the proceedings. 25 I think one of the good reasons that these ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 569 1 should be directors are the same as pointed out 2 before; but also that the directors are more 3 likely to be at the board to answer questions. 4 Members may or may not be here depending upon 5 their finances, time and personal problems. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Berry, then 7 Daubert and then Campbell. Berry. 8 MS. BERRY: Historically we have 9 had some members, we had two retired superior 10 court judges, Ed Fogge and Eddie Tourri that we 11 used in this capacity. They were members; and I 12 think that we should have the term "members." 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Then 14 Campbell. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: I think directors 16 are members. Why would this preclude the 17 directors? If we use the language "members," it 18 includes directors, directors emeriti or any other 19 members. I don't understand why that would be 20 exclusionary if you use the word "members." 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Daubert, 22 comments, please. 23 MR. DAUBERT: Would our insurance 24 cover members as errors and omissions or just 25 directors? It might be a liability issue that we ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 570 1 should stay with directors. 2 MS. REYNA: That's a really good 3 point. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I sure 5 can't answer that one. 6 MR. DAUBERT: I can't either. I 7 just bring it up. 8 MS. HENNING: Since this document 9 if passed still has to be reviewed by our 10 attorney, perhaps this is something that we direct 11 the attorney specifically to consider. If you 12 want to change it to "members," I think you should 13 do that. And then if there is an issue with that 14 wording that it needs to be specifically 15 "directors," the attorney will so advise and you 16 can do something by postal ballot before it goes 17 to the membership. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Cassette 19 next. 20 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: I understand 21 your concern Dave; but I don't believe it's an 22 issue, because they're making a recommendation 23 only. In order to be a liability there must be 24 action; and we are saying now under the new number 25 wherever we're at, Number 15, that it's the board ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 571 1 who is going to take action and therefore bears 2 the liability. It's a good point; and I agree 3 with Betty too. You know, we can run it by our 4 attorney; but I don't think that's the issue. The 5 issue is who is taking the action; and it's the 6 board. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 8 We've heard a lot of discussion. It's a simple 9 matter. Do you want the word to be "directors," 10 or do you want it to be "members"? Those in favor 11 of changing that to "members" raise your hand. 12 MS. BRYAN: One more question, 13 please. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: One more 15 question? Okay. Question, Bryan. 16 MS. BRYAN: Are we precluding 17 director emeriti if we just leave the word 18 "directors"? 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I would say 20 no. Campbell. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: I would disagree 22 with your opinion, because a director is entitled 23 to a vote clearly; and if you use the language 24 "directors," those are those individuals who are 25 allowed to vote. So I think using the word ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 572 1 "directors" does not allow a director emeritus. 2 MS. HENNING: I would agree. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have a 4 different opinion on that one. We still have the 5 main issue here. Is it the word "director" or is 6 it "member"? I think we need a roll call. Okay. 7 Those in favor of making the change to member will 8 vote "yes." If you are opposed, you are voting 9 "no." Roll call. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 11 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 13 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 15 MR. BITTER: Yes. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 17 MS. BOZZO: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 19 MS. BRYAN: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 21 MR. BURKS: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 23 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 25 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 573 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 4 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 6 MR. DAUBERT: No. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 8 MS. DEAN: Yes. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 10 MR. GODDARD: Yes. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 14 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 16 MS. KEMPE: Yes. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 18 MS. MAZE: Yes. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 20 MS. MORFORD: No. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 22 MR. PAGE: Yes. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 24 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 574 1 MS. REYNA: No. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 3 DR. DEAN ROWE: No. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 5 MS. SANKEY: Yes. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 7 MS. SAUM: Yes. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 9 MS. SENN: Yes. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 11 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 13 MR. PETER SNYDER: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 15 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 17 MS. WEAVER: Yes. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The motion 19 carries. But the count is what? 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Eight "no." 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Eight "no. 22 So 21 "yes." 23 MS. MCKENZIE: No abstentions. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No 25 abstentions. So we have changed the word then. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 575 1 The word is now "members" on old Section 13 as 2 proposed, which is now 14. Are we ready to accept 3 this procedure now? Is there anything else we 4 need to do with it? 5 Okay. The question is before you, accept 6 the entire article, new Article 10 entitled 7 "Complaints" with the changes that are made. 8 Those in favor will say "aye." 9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 11 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) All right. 12 We have a new -- 13 MS. BOZZO: Bryan. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: -- 15 proposal. Bryan is an abstention or a "no"? 16 MS. BRYAN: Abstention. 17 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Abstention. 18 All right. Now we can try to go through the 19 items that we started on prior to that which are 20 either deleting or repositioning sections in the 21 constitution; and that would be the -- what I was 22 trying to do is to handle the ones that are number 23 4 in Meetings that would be in the new Number 4 24 and had been Sections 2 and 3 on Membership. Is 25 that clear which ones we'll try to address? Saum. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 576 1 MS. SAUM: I have real issue with 2 this. I would really prefer this to go back to 3 committee and that they write out exactly the new 4 format for us so we can look at it. I'm afraid 5 something is going to be left out that we didn't 6 intend to be left out or added that we didn't 7 intend to be added. I think it's hard the way 8 this is laid out. And I move we refer this back 9 to committee for better formatting. 10 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. A motion 11 to refer. Second from Bryan. 12 MS. BRYAN: No. No. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That is not 14 a second? Do we have a second on the motion to 15 refer? 16 MS. SANKEY: Second. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 18 Sankey. 19 MS. BRYAN: Comment. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Now the 21 discussion at this point is only on the motion to 22 refer, on the merits of continuing discussion on 23 these items or sending it back. Bryan. 24 MS. BRYAN: My only comment on the 25 motion to refer, and I said a while ago, is that ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 577 1 this is a constitutional amendment; and if we 2 refer this, that means that we don't take the 3 other, I'm assuming we don't take the other to the 4 membership for the -- well, it should all go as a 5 package I'm thinking. If we're going to the 6 membership for a constitutional amendment, it 7 should all go as a package. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So you've 9 heard Bryan's opinion that she would like whatever 10 we are going to do in the area of rearranging the 11 constitution to be ready at the same time as what 12 we have already done. Does anyone else want to 13 take up that? Daubert. 14 MR. DAUBERT: A procedural issue: 15 If we send this back, particularly this section, 16 star two, Membership, and we do not delete 17 portions Section 5, we've got two complaint 18 procedures. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I 20 think you can accept, Dave, that we will replace 21 the ones that are clearly complaint sections with 22 this; and that can be handled without doing the 23 rest if you prefer to do that. 24 MS. SAUM: I'll withdraw it. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Go ahead. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 578 1 MS. HENNING: I guess we need 2 perhaps a point of clarification here. Once 3 Section 8 is accepted, as you have just done, the 4 rest of this is merely moving things around. 5 There are no wording changes proposed in the rest 6 of this. It is simply rearranging it so that it 7 is more user friendly. There are no wording 8 changes, and everything is in here. There are no 9 deletions. The only things that have been deleted 10 you have already passed in the new complaints 11 process. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Saum 13 again. 14 MS. SAUM: I'll withdraw my motion 15 for referral. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. The 17 motion for referral has been withdrawn; and I am 18 accepting that unless the group doesn't wish it to 19 be accepted, because there was discussion that 20 began; and you as a group could dictate that we 21 continue discussion and vote, but I believe we can 22 withdraw unless you object to my allowing her to 23 withdraw. Cassette then. 24 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: My point is 25 just for clarification for the record and the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 579 1 minutes; and I know what Betty just said, "We have 2 not deleted anything." What we did is that the 3 intent is by the new complaint section. So Betty, 4 will you tell us which sections specifically for 5 the record are being deleted? So which one of 6 those complaints sections, page number and 7 specific sections are now being replaced, so in 8 effect they are deleted with this new process? 9 MS. HENNING: All right. If we 10 look at page one, Article 4, Membership, Section 1 11 remains in Article 4. Section 2 is moved to new 12 Article 6, Section 2. Section 2 went to -- 13 Section 3 went to new Article 4. Section 4, okay. 14 Section 6. Okay. The ones addressing, all the 15 ones addressing complaints are gone. So it would 16 be Section 5, Section 6, Section 7, 8, 9, 10 and 17 especially 11; but some of those are put back in. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. This 19 is pretty complex. Can we leave it that the board 20 has accepted we want a change in the complaint 21 process and that the rearranged and prepared, 22 which the committee chairman would do with the 23 office, wording of this entire constitution 24 section would be prepared and verified to include 25 everything that wasn't specifically taken out of ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 580 1 complaints, that we just charge the committee 2 chairman and the office to be sure that's done, 3 copy the EC with it and copy the attorney to make 4 sure that we are including everything in a 5 different section rather than have the board go 6 through all that. We know that's what the board 7 wants. Can we just leave it that that will be 8 handled by the chairman and the office, the EC, 9 and the attorney? Is that okay? Does that 10 handles it? 11 MS. MORFORD: A copy to the board? 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: A copy to 13 the board after it's approved by the attorney 14 before the vote of the membership. Okay. All 15 right. 16 MR. DAUBERT: Do you want a 17 motion? 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. I'm 19 just saying that's the way we will do it unless 20 you object and we can move on. It is now noon. 21 I'm looking if there is any other action. Okay. 22 There is other action here regarding the -- it's 23 all regarding redistricting. And we can't do 24 redistricting right now. We don't have time. 25 We'll have to come back after lunch. Yes, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 581 1 Anderson. 2 MS. ANDERSON: Before we break for 3 lunch could I make a suggestion that when we do 4 take this to the membership that we take the time 5 to completely write it out? 6 MS. HENNING: Oh, it will be. 7 MS. ANDERSON: I was just making 8 sure. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: What they 10 will for sure get is the new complete wording. 11 What will be more difficult is to try to explain 12 it after the body of the wording; and that will be 13 somewhat challenging about what is different about 14 it. 15 Okay. So we are breaking for lunch. I 16 assume we're still in the same room, the Knoxville 17 Room. I didn't get a note today. 18 (LUNCH RECESS.) 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Let's be 20 seated. We need to get back to the Constitution 21 Committee. We do need a roll call then. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 23 MR. ALTHEIDE: Here. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 25 MS. ANDERSON: Here. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 582 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 2 MR. BITTER: Here. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 4 MS. BOZZO: Here. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 6 MS. BRYAN: Here. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 8 MR. BURKS: Here. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 10 MS. CAMPBELL: Present. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 12 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Here. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Here. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 16 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Here. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 18 MR. DAUBERT: Here. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Patty Dean. 20 MS. DEAN: Here. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 22 MR. GODDARD: Here. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Here. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 583 1 MS. HENDRICKSON: Present. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 3 MS. KEMPE: Here. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 5 MS. MAZE: Here. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 7 MS. MORFORD: Here. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 9 MR. PAGE: Here. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 11 MS. PETERSON: Here. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 13 MS. REYNA: Here. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 15 DR. DEAN ROWE: Here. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 17 MS. SANKEY: Here. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 19 MS. SAUM: Here. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 21 MS. SENN: Here. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 23 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Here. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 25 MR. PETER SNYDER: Here. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 584 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 2 MS. STRICKLAND: Here. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 4 MS. WEAVER: Here. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Lelia Berry. 6 MS. BERRY: Here. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Sally Callahan. 8 MS. CALLAHAN: Here. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Bob Cassette. 10 MR. ROBERT CASSETTE: Here. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Sheila Nixon. 12 MS. NIXON: Here. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So we have 14 mainly the redistricting plans to do; but there is 15 Item 5 here where the first item under (b). 16 Proposed changes is similar to the one that we 17 already looked at in the constitution. Do you 18 want to take action on this suggestion that in 19 addition to the sentence that was added last year 20 assigning secretary-treasurer responsibility to 21 the association manager, do you want the words 22 changed as suggested here? It is before you. Do 23 you see where we are? Number 5, Decisions 24 Requiring Board Action, (b), Item 1? This would 25 be placed in the bylaws. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 585 1 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: We already 2 said "no." 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We were 4 talking about the constitution before. This would 5 be in the bylaws. It's basically the same thing; 6 but this one is for the bylaws. It might take the 7 consent of the group that we don't need a change 8 in the bylaws either. Is that correct? 9 BOARD MEMBERS: (Concurring.) 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So then we 11 will not take action on that item and leave it as 12 it is. And then we go to the redistricting plan. 13 MS. HENNING: There is some 14 cleanup stuff first. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All the 16 rest of those too? 17 MS. HENNING: Okay. Before we go 18 to that, if you would look at Article 1, 19 Membership, we're proposing adding four sections 20 that we removed from the constitution and add to 21 the bylaws; and those are from that Article 4 in 22 the constitution's former section, constitution 23 Article 4, Sections 8, 9, 10 and 11, just moving 24 those from the constitution to the bylaws. So 25 your action here would add those four sections to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 586 1 Article 1 of the bylaws with no wording changes 2 from the existing wording in the existing 3 constitution. 4 DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 5 There are four items there to move then. 6 Cassette. Or Saum. 7 MS. SAUM: I'm just curious. What 8 is the rationale for moving it? If you're moving 9 it exactly the way it is, why move it? 10 MS. HENNING: The rationale for 11 moving it was that it more appropriately fits in 12 the bylaws than in the constitution. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Jean Miller 14 is here with us! We haven't seen Jean for a 15 while. 16 (Applause.) 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 18 Do you understand what is suggested? Do you want 19 to take this action? 20 MS. HENNING: If you will look at 21 page nine of the Guidebook and look at the 22 sections that would precede this new section which 23 deals with K, like K, "In cases of a member 24 charged with abuse or neglect, Conduct 25 detrimental, Release of member's animal ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 587 1 information," and then look back on page two to 2 Sections 8, 9, 10 and 11. It followed logically, 3 and we felt that those sections more properly 4 belonged in the bylaws than in the constitution. 5 DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think that 6 explanation probably helped, didn't it? So page 7 two to the top of page three, those items together 8 are the ones that are going to move. Okay with 9 that then? Those in favor say "aye." 10 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 12 "no." (None.) Abstentions? (None.) All right. 13 Thank you. That's unanimous. 14 MS. HENNING: Okay. The following 15 section is going to apply only once the new 16 districts are set up. So I think we should go 17 ahead with your consideration of the plan that you 18 wish to adopt for districts. 19 Just a little background on this which 20 appeared in the second quarter of News & Events: 21 We had extensive discussions in committee. I 22 don't remember offhand exactly how many plans we 23 reviewed. We reviewed several eight-district 24 plans, several nine-district plans and at least 25 two or three 10-district plans. At on my call for ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 588 1 conclusions the committee initially determined 2 that we would present two eight-district plans to 3 the board. That was the initial vote. 4 Subsequent to that after additional 5 discussion in committee it became apparent to me 6 that there was -- that we had about -- we had 7 barely a quorum or barely a little more than a 8 50/50 vote on the committee and with just 9 presenting two eight-district plans. And it was 10 my decision to go back to committee and ask them 11 to consider a 9- to 10-district plan. 12 The discussion in committee had been that a 13 10-district plan would be preferable. So what we 14 did was to choose a 10-district plan that we could 15 agree on with a majority of the committee members 16 bringing forward that plan. The three plans that 17 were published in the News & Events were those 18 three plans that were approved by the majority of 19 committee members to bring to you as directors and 20 to the membership as a whole in order that you 21 have sufficient time to receive any input and 22 consideration from the members of your districts 23 as to how they felt about these various proposals, 24 again with the idea that we have been out of 25 compliance in representation for several years and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 589 1 this needs to be addressed. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Daubert. 3 MR. DAUBERT: As you probably 4 know, I was involved with the original task force 5 that started in 1990. One of the things that we 6 came up with early in the task force was the 7 eight-district plans are difficult. It's not that 8 they don't work well in representation. The 9 holdover if you look in the Guidebook on page 10, 10 section B, it's the 12 and a half percent. That 11 was a holdover from when there were six districts. 12 That was not changed when it went to eight 13 districts. 14 If you take 100 percent and divide it by 15 eight, you come up with 12 and a half. If you 16 have a district that has 12.4 percent one year, 17 the next year goes -- and has three directors, the 18 next year goes to 12.6 percent, it has four 19 directors. The next year it goes to 12.3 percent 20 is goes back to three directors. It's the 12 and 21 a half percent that causes the problems with an 22 eight-district plan. It worked fine with six 23 districts. 12 and a half works well with nine or 24 10 districts. 12 and half doesn't work well with 25 eight districts. So if you'd like an ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 590 1 eight-district plan, I'd strongly urge you to 2 change the 12 and the half percent, because it's 3 going to cause problems. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Dave 5 Daubert, this discussion is barely relevant, 6 because we do want your opinions on whether we 7 need eight districts or 10 districts, and that's 8 why I somewhat consider this relevant. But the 9 committee has also looked at what happens if you 10 adopt any of these; and to me it is another step 11 once you adopt one of these to look at what kind 12 of percentages you want to insert there. 13 So I think that we can actually not discuss 14 that idea in detail yet. We need to decide if we 15 want to make a change to one of these plans 16 knowing if that if we make a change to one of 17 these plans, there will be some more tweaking to 18 do. Strickland. 19 MS. STRICKLAND: I think what you 20 have to realize is if you look at this other 21 verbiage and what Betty can say what came out of 22 committee was that if we are going to be in 23 compliance with the constitution and do what the 24 constitution says, then we need a plan to 25 redistrict on a regular basis. And if you do ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 591 1 that, no matter what district plan you would 2 accept as to what has been proposed, those 3 triggers no longer need to be in place. That can 4 all go away. And that's what the proposal deals 5 with. It's not we don't have that additional if 6 we accept this proposal like it is with one of 7 these plans. 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 9 That's the opinion that really goes back to the 10 issue of what we do about the triggers. And right 11 now we need to decide are we making a change to 12 Plan A, Plan B, Plan C or none of them. That's 13 what we need to decide. Goddard. 14 MR. GODDARD: I also would like to 15 share with the board the nine-district plan. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I 17 think the chairman of the committee has explained 18 that there were probably yours, but at least other 19 plans certainly in committee; and unless there is 20 some other board member who wants to agree to 21 introduce that, I am saying to you that we should 22 not be discussing that because the committee 23 already did this work and looked at other plans 24 and brought us these three. 25 So is there someone else who wants to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 592 1 bring in a nine-district plan in addition to these 2 right now? I don't see anybody else wanting to do 3 that. We need to try to confine it to accept one 4 of these three or reject them all. If we reject 5 them all, obviously the committee would have to 6 look at nine again next year. Reyna. 7 MS. REYNA: I guess I'll start off 8 by I speak in favor of an eight-district plan for 9 a number of reasons. I think that it does reduce 10 the number of directors and saves money for ADGA, 11 and I don't think that's a bad thing; and I favor 12 the A plan simply because we start out with a very 13 equal number of members in each district, and 14 hopefully it won't become unbalanced too much 15 before the 10-year period is over. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. We 17 do have the three plans here, and it's appropriate 18 to give your thoughts on those plans. Go here to 19 Saum and then Altheide. 20 MS. SAUM: First, being from 21 District Four, I think all of us being from our 22 own district and looking at our own state, which 23 one would, I would speak in favor of Plan B or C 24 for District Four, because the Plan A has Ohio 25 with Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and we don't ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 593 1 really commonly show back and forth among those 2 three states like we do with the other states. 3 The other thing I'd like to just throw out 4 as food for thought if we would decide that we 5 don't like any of these plans is the real issue 6 with having "equal representation," if you want to 7 use that term, is District Four, that we have a 8 lot of members and not the same representation as 9 others; but we could instead change on page 10 the 10 percentages which would bring that in. I'm not -- 11 I'm just throwing that out as food for thought as 12 something to do is the greater than 18.75 ADGA 13 membership, six directors only. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Go to 15 Altheide next. 16 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. The couple of 17 issues I have with this, first off when we deal 18 with issues like breed standards we have an 19 official poll of the membership. We get good 20 information as to the feeling of the membership as 21 to their opinions as to whether or not they feel a 22 change is necessary or not and which way they 23 prefer that change to be made. And I don't -- I 24 think that was something that was needed to be 25 done here and is something that I stated long and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 594 1 loud that needed to be done; but it was not done. 2 There was no official poll. 3 The information that we get as 4 individual directors is often skewed by the 5 context we make. It's limited. If you want to 6 contact a politician or a director, you contact 7 the one that's closest to you, so we perhaps get 8 different ideas as to what the members of our 9 districts prefer because the ones that contact us 10 live close. And as far as any of the plans go, 11 the members that have contacted me I ran them down 12 to ask them what they preferred on this was "Why 13 do we need to do this?" 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Campbell. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: I believe I made 16 the motion last year that we were to present 17 something, have the Constitution Committee come up 18 with some ideas, submit those to the membership 19 and we would make a decision at this meeting. And 20 I respect George's discussion of a poll. I think 21 that's reasonable; but I think we have followed 22 the intent of that motion and that action last 23 year. So we have in front of us three viable 24 proposals. And in the effort of moving things 25 forward I'm going to move that we accept ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 595 1 Proposal B. 2 MR. BURKS: I'll second it. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have a 4 second on that from Burks. Okay. So now we have 5 before you a motion, and we are going to discuss 6 the merits of B and vote on that. Does anyone 7 want to discuss the problems or the advantages of 8 Plan B? Cassette. 9 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Well, 10 speaking from the standpoint of looking at Plan B 11 for District 1, taking the smallest district and 12 making it largest doesn't seem to me to be in 13 balance; and it's -- and you compare that with the 14 new District Three which is sitting there as the 15 smallest. I'm not sure that that is the most 16 reasonable representation of membership within the 17 Association, one. 18 And the second part of that is that B 19 doesn't really fully address District Seven's 20 issue when you deal with the Dakotas and where 21 they are located as part of the map and the 22 drawings. So I don't believe that this fixes what 23 we discussed in any way. 24 MS. HENNING: If I could just 25 address that point. I agree with Phil on this. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 596 1 District B's plan actually does not meet the 2 requirements of equitable distribution of 3 population, yet these were the plans that the 4 committee voted on; but I think it should be very 5 clear to those sitting here that District B in 6 fact does not solve the problem of meeting the 7 percentages to acquire equitable distribution. 8 I've worked on redistricting, political 9 redistricting for cities and counties for election 10 purposes, and there are always issues as to how 11 one does redistricting; and you know, certainly 12 we're going to have these here. But our mandate 13 to the committee was to have, present equitable 14 plans. I'm not the only member of that committee, 15 so there is a plan here that I feel is not 16 equitable. And that is Plans B. Plans A and C 17 are equitable plans. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 19 We'll go to Morford. 20 MS. MORFORD: I speak in favor for 21 the eight-district Plan A. It's very equitable in 22 the number of members per district and looks like 23 it's well thought out. Yes, I'm speaking against 24 the motion for B. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. I'll ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 597 1 take that as discussion against adopting B. Does 2 anyone else wish to speak? Then the maker of the 3 motion will go back there. Does anyone want to 4 address the B plan or the merits of B plan? Okay. 5 Linda again. 6 MS. CAMPBELL: I just wanted to 7 say defeating this one we can look at an 8 alternative one. This happened to be the one that 9 I got the most response from my membership. I 10 understand the concern of distribution. I was 11 looking more at -- well, the one thing that did 12 bother me was Mexico in District One. That 13 bothers me in any of these where we have -- or 14 District Two rather. But I think looking at the 15 numbers of members I know they do change from year 16 to year. 17 I did compare them. I did a little 18 research back about four years ago, and those 19 numbers were not close to those. So I think 20 whatever we accept we can also understand there 21 will be a change in numbers. So if we start with 22 what might seem appropriate, four years ago 23 District One, that was not the number. It was 24 about seven something; and so those numbers have 25 changed each year. But if we defeat this, we can ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 598 1 go through to the option that the majority 2 approve. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Bryan. 4 MS. BRYAN: I did have some 5 comment back from the newsletter, although it was 6 not a poll; and I would have been much more 7 comfortable if it had been a poll. And the 8 comments that I got back were that they didn't see 9 why we were redistricting. They didn't want to be 10 redistricted. If we were going to redistrict, 11 well, they guess they would accept one plan or 12 another. And some of them did specify a plan. I 13 did get some that were in favor of a particular 14 plan. 15 But I'm just concerned that we are doing 16 work here for whatever reason that maybe we don't 17 need to be doing; and if we need to look at the 18 Guidebook and change the Guidebook, change 19 triggers or whatever; but I'm concerned that we 20 are changing what we have now, and I'm speaking 21 against accepting district Plan B. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Plan B. 23 Plan B is what we have to dispense with now. Are 24 your comments on plan B then, Hendrickson? 25 MS. HENDRICKSON: Of the two ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 599 1 eight-district plans I like the Plan B better than 2 the A because Canada is divided east and west; and 3 several members who are in District Seven are 4 currently not real happy with the idea that if the 5 A plan was involved, that they would be talking to 6 people in the middle of the country if they really 7 went with the district director that was directly 8 linked to them. And for that reason they 9 encouraged me not to adopt the plan that has all 10 of Canada in one district. 11 So I am speaking in favor of the B 12 eight-district plan. That's not to say that I 13 wouldn't be more in favor of the 10-district plan 14 if it came down to that; but I don't like the A 15 plan because all of Canada is one district. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna. 17 MS. REYNA: I actually just did do 18 a survey of District Seven and asked, you know, 19 some questions. And I didn't ask specifically 20 about the redistricting; but I surprisingly got 21 back well over 100 replies, which is a lot more 22 than I expected. And the majority of them hadn't 23 really looked at A or B a great deal; but they 24 were overwhelmingly in favor of eight rather than 25 10. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 600 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, there 2 are lots of things that had to be considered here, 3 lots of details; and we do have to adopt one of 4 these or change one of these a bit. If it would 5 make one of these acceptable and you can make a 6 small change to it, you can still do that as well. 7 Gustafson. 8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I will, you know, 9 admit that the numbers of members from District 10 Five that did contact me regarding this, I did 11 have a couple that were in favor of the 12 10-district plan; but the majority of those 13 members that contacted me were in favor of B. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Are we 15 ready to vote on this as it is? Do you want any 16 changes in B? Do you want to vote on B now? 17 MS. CAMPBELL: Point of 18 clarification. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 20 Campbell. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: At this point a 22 clarification. If we do accept it, can we yet 23 modify something individually? 24 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. I think 25 we could do that after the fact as well. It might ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 601 1 be cleaner to do it prior; but we could do that. 2 MS. CAMPBELL: Well, this group 3 would have to agree on it. And we could amend 4 something first and then try to accept the 5 package. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's what 7 I would prefer. 8 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna. 10 MS. REYNA: I have a problem with 11 that, because this committee was charged with 12 making these equitable. And equitability as far 13 as I'm concerned is the issue; and that is my 14 objection to B. To start out with it is greatly 15 inequitable to start with, and then you know, at 16 least we should start even. But to start moving 17 things around when they did their damndest to come 18 up with an equal between districts is a problem 19 for me. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think a 21 lot of you may be facing, you know, what I'm 22 facing. You have had different input from the 23 people that contacted you; and maybe the input you 24 got isn't exactly what you see when you get here 25 and look at this more too. But we do have to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 602 1 vote. It is our task as 30 directors to make the 2 decision here. And we have this proposal B before 3 you to accept or reject at this time. If there is 4 no more comment on that, I think we have the roll 5 call on this one, roll call on the acceptance of 6 Plan B as stated. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 8 MR. ALTHEIDE: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 10 MS. ANDERSON: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 12 MR. BITTER: Yes. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 14 MS. BOZZO: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 16 MS. BRYAN: No. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 18 MR. BURKS: Yes. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 20 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 22 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: No. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 24 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 603 1 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Yes. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 3 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 5 MS. DEAN: No. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 7 MR. GODDARD: No. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 11 MS. HENDRICKSON: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 13 MS. KEMPE: No. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 15 MS. MAZE: Yes. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 17 MS. MORFORD: No. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 19 MR. PAIGE: No. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 21 MS. PETERSON: No. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 23 MS. REYNA: No. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 25 DR. DEAN ROWE: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 604 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 2 MS. SANKEY: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 4 MS. SAUM: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 6 MS. SENN: No. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 8 MS. HELEN SNYDER: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 10 MR. SNYDER: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 12 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 14 MS. WEAVER: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Eight "yes." 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Eight 17 "yes," with 21 "no," no abstentions. Okay. So we 18 are not going to adopt Plan B. We have another. 19 Reyna. 20 MS. REYNA: Well, I might as well 21 then suggest that or move that we adopt Plan A. 22 MS. CAMPBELL: Second. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 24 Campbell. Discussion on the merits of adopting 25 Plan A now from Saum. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 605 1 MS. SAUM: I again have to speak 2 in opposition to plan one for District Four, 3 because Ohio is not geographically representative 4 for my own district, and again we are having the 5 Dakota issue with that one. I just must speak 6 against that one. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Any other 8 comment on Plan A? Altheide. 9 MR. ALTHEIDE: I would also speak 10 in opposition, because not only does the Dakota 11 issue remain the same, we have now added Nebraska 12 to that district which increases the problem. And 13 looking at the new District Five which includes 14 Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri and 15 Arkansas I can state that there is no easy way to 16 get from Iowa to Arkansas. I have tried a number 17 of times. While the numbers are more equitable I 18 really believe that the membership deserves a 19 chance to have personal contact with their 20 directors. E-mail is great and wonderful; but it 21 does not replace being able to walk up to a 22 director and grab them by the arm before they 23 unload their goats from the show, and it has 24 happened to me before, and complain to them and 25 tell them your problems. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 606 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: More 2 discussion on Plan A then. Reyna. 3 MS. REYNA: I would -- I keep 4 hearing people say that there is a problem with 5 reaching all the members of your district; and I 6 grant that this is an issue, but it is an issue no 7 matter how we distribute the districts. It 8 doesn't matter which plan that we accept there is 9 going to be somebody that is going to be a long 10 ways from their directors. And if this is going 11 to be a problem with any plan, which it is going 12 to be, then we have to make that extra effort. 13 I've made a great deal of extra effort this 14 year to reach the people that are way east of me; 15 and granted, I can usually do that only by e-mail 16 but or by letter; but I have done so and I have 17 been successful. They now have their own little 18 list; and I joined it, and it's given me a lot of 19 opportunity to speak with them. But if this is 20 going to be an issue no matter what the 21 distribution of districts, then I think you weigh 22 that problem against the equitable representation; 23 and I think equitable representation in the long 24 run should win. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do we have ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 607 1 more comments before we vote? Morford. 2 MS. MORFORD: I think it's 3 relatively inconsequential to talk about direct 4 contact with members, because we have members on 5 the other side of the world. We represent the 6 members. We all do. It doesn't matter if they're 7 from your district or not. That's our job. And I 8 rarely have personal contact with members, because 9 I don't show; but they never have any problem 10 talking to me, because I have got a phone, I have 11 e-mail, and I am out and about. I don't think 12 that that's an issue. I think that district, the 13 district Plan A is the way to go. Thank you. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 15 Daubert. 16 MR. DAUBERT: One of the problems 17 we had looked at earlier was time zones. District 18 Seven in plan A is in three time zones. That 19 makes it more difficult. That was one of the 20 issues that we came up with was time zones. Even 21 if you don't have direct contact, you still 22 have -- you're working across three time zones. 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. If 24 there is no more discussion, then we need a roll 25 call on that one. The motion is accept Plan A as ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 608 1 stated or reject it. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 3 MR. ALTHEIDE: No. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 5 MS. ANDERSON: No. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 7 MR. BITTER: Yes. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 9 MS. BOZZO: No. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 11 MS. BRYAN: No. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 13 MR. BURKS: No. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 17 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: No. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 21 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 23 MR. DAUBERT: No. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 25 MS. DEAN: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 609 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 2 MR. GODDARD: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 4 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 6 MS. HENDRICKSON: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 8 MS. KEMPE: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 10 MS. MAZE: Yes. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 12 MS. MORFORD: Yes. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 14 MR. PAGE: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 16 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 18 MS. REYNA: Yes. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 20 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: No. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 22 MS. SANKEY: No. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 24 MS. SAUM: No. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 610 1 MS. SENN: No. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 3 MS. HELEN SNYDER: No. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 5 PETE SNYDER: No. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 7 MS. STRICKLAND: Yes. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 9 MS. WEAVER: No. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It sounds 11 like this one is defeated as well. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: 10 "yes." 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: More than 14 the last one, but still defeated. Saum. 15 MS. SAUM: I'd like to offer an 16 alternative to redistricting, but still getting 17 representation. Do you have your pens? Okay. If 18 you look on your Guidebook on page 10 where it 19 talks about the percentages about a third of the 20 way down, if everybody is there, it says for zero 21 to 12.5 percent you get three directors, which 22 makes up for our three-director minimum for each 23 district. And then it goes through 12.5 percent 24 to 15.625. The difference is 3.125. So if you go 25 to the fourth one, which is really the problem, is ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 611 1 the district that is over that number, greater 2 than 18.725, if you add 3.125 to that, it comes up 3 to 21.875. 4 My proposal is that you change that in the 5 Guidebook to 18.75 to 21.875 would be six 6 directors. 7 MR. DAUBERT: No. 8 MS. SAUM: Just wait, Dave. And 9 then add one more additional line which would be 10 21.875, add the 3.125 again which would give you 11 25 percent would equal 8. That's going to give 12 you two more directors, which I know it is more 13 expensive to the board. But nobody, hardly 14 anybody is going to vote to change their 15 districts; and this might be an acceptable way to 16 have a little bit better representation if you 17 don't want to change your district. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We're 19 getting into discussion here beyond the motion. 20 MS. SAUM: All right. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I'm not 22 clear on the motion yet. There currently are four 23 categories. Do you want five or six categories? 24 MS. SAUM: Five categories. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You want ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 612 1 just five. 2 MS. SAUM: Instead of having the 3 four -- 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: And the 5 next jump is not one director. It's two more 6 directors immediately? 7 MS. SAUM: It should be one. I'm 8 wrong. It should be one. I'm sorry. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So the 10 wording should be "over 21.875, but there is no 11 cap on that then, equals 7." That's what you 12 want? 13 MS. SAUM: Yes. 14 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Do we have 15 a second? 16 MS. BOZZO: Second. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 18 Bozzo. I'd like Betty to address that idea. 19 MS. HENNING: Well, I know that 20 this probably sounds like an easy solution; but it 21 isn't, because if the districts are out of balance 22 like this, you can add directors in one; but the 23 problem is that there is a population change 24 reducing the number of members in other districts. 25 And as long as we have the three director per ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 613 1 district rule or the two director per district 2 rule, then you're going to have inequitability in 3 districts that lose representation. That's why 4 redistricting is the alternative, not changing the 5 percentages, because this doesn't solve what is 6 going to happen in the future. 7 In committee we looked at 10 years of data 8 of fluctuation in population numbers throughout 9 the districts; and there were no significant 10 differences in the 2002 numbers which were the 11 ones that we had at the time we looked at this 12 process for the past 10 years. 13 This is not an aberration that we're 14 looking at here, folks. This is a problem that's 15 been with us for a long time and needs resolution. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We do have 17 a motion with a second though that to, rather than 18 redistrict is what the intention is I believe 19 here, to add another category on page 10B so that 20 a district may have as many as seven directors 21 rather than a maximum of six. Bitter. 22 MR. BITTER: The constitution 23 would have to be changed along with this because 24 you can only elect two directors in any given 25 year. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 614 1 MS. HENNING: Right. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 3 That's a point by Bitter. Do we have something by 4 Hendrickson? 5 MS. HENDRICKSON: I feel the 6 overrepresentation is just as bad as 7 underrepresentation; and the only way to equalize 8 it is by moving boundaries, because districts that 9 are historically low in membership still retain 10 three directors where districts that are high in 11 membership don't have the opportunity to gain a 12 director to make it equitable. And as this point 13 was made, we can't do it unless we change the 14 constitution. So the only way to shift the 15 borders around and equal out the numbers is with a 16 redistricting plan of some sort. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Altheide. 18 MR. ALTHEIDE: First off I think 19 there is a difference between "equitable" and 20 "equal." And Bonnie did some digging; and I'm 21 going to put her on the spot. She did some 22 digging on some other issues; and when our new 23 constitution was adopted in 1975 the size of the 24 district and the number of directors from each 25 district was not equal. They were equitable. And ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 615 1 I think that's what Robin's plan does. It makes 2 equitable districts. And can one really have too 3 much representation for the membership? I 4 disagree with that point. I don't think so. I 5 don't think you achieve equitable representation 6 by reducing the representation, so I would speak 7 in favor of Robin's plan with the constitutional 8 amendment which gives the membership a chance to 9 be involved in the process to change the number of 10 directors elected per year and to remove there's 11 also a six director per district cap in the 12 constitution. I believe and that also would have 13 to be removed. 14 MS. HENNING: When I teach my 15 political science classes and we talk about the 16 issue of redistricting at the federal level these 17 are just some of the issues that we address. Our 18 United States Constitution operates under the same 19 premises as our ADGA constitution and it requires 20 redistricting. 21 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Kempe. 22 MS. KEMPE: With due respect to 23 Betty's position as a political science teacher, 24 our U.S. Constitution also allows no matter how 25 low your membership, your population goes in your ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 616 1 state, guarantees one member to the House, and we 2 are guaranteeing three. So we have a minimum as 3 does the United States Constitution. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Cassette. 5 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Also Betty 6 brought it up, so I think it is a fair issue. The 7 American Constitution also deals with geographic 8 representation; and we do not change state line 9 borders. Our Senate there is as many 10 representative Senators from the state of Vermont 11 as the state of Texas and California. There is an 12 issue of geographic representation. So I'm not 13 sure when she is quoting that that we need to 14 quote it all and total. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. What 16 we're addressing now is a motion by Saum to add a 17 fifth category on the number of directors per 18 district. It is page 10. Anymore discussion on 19 that motion? Are you ready to vote on that? 20 We'll have roll call on that one. If you are 21 voting "yes" here, means you want the -- you 22 prefer not to redistrict and instead add a fifth 23 category to allow a seven-director maximum. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 25 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 617 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 2 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 4 MR. BITTER: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 6 MS. BOZZO: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 8 MS. BRYAN: Yes. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 10 MR. BURKS: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 12 MS. CAMPBELL: No. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 14 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Yes. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 16 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 18 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: No. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 20 MR. DAUBERT: No. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 22 MS. DEAN: Yes. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 24 MR. GODDARD: Yes. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 618 1 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 3 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 5 MS. KEMPE: Yes. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 7 MS. MAZE: Yes. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 9 MS. MORFORD: No. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 11 MR. PAGE: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 13 MS. PETERSON: No. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 15 MS. REYNA: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 17 DR. DEAN ROWE: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 19 MS. SANKEY: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 21 MS. SAUM: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 23 MS. SENN: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 25 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 619 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 2 MR. PETER SNYDER: Yes. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 4 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 6 MS. WEAVER: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Eleven "no." 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have 11 9 "no," 18 "yes." So we have accepted that idea. 10 Hendrickson. 11 MS. HENDRICKSON: Okay. If this 12 proposal passes for a change in bylaws, if the 13 membership does not pass the change in the 14 constitution, it becomes a null and void issue, 15 does it not? 16 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I think 17 that would be correct; but it is possible for this 18 board to propose the appropriate change in 19 Article 5 at the same time that we are sending the 20 changes in the complaint process to the 21 membership. And we need to decide what changes 22 are needed to accomplish this. Hendrickson. 23 MS. HENDRICKSON: I would move 24 that the change in this particular section of the 25 constitution to allow more than two directors to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 620 1 be elected in a year in a given district be a 2 separate vote than the other constitutional 3 changes we've proposed already together. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 5 That's a motion. Do we have a second on that? No 6 second. And I would say, Pat, that is a little 7 ahead of ourselves here, because we don't know 8 what the wording is, we don't know what, no one 9 has proposed what we will change; but it is clear 10 we do need to change something. Chris Strickland. 11 MS. STRICKLAND: Just a comment 12 for the record, if I might: This is real 13 disturbing to me that we approached this problem 14 this way having worked on this committee. The 15 constitution clearly says "equitable 16 representation." And we are not doing that. We 17 are not in compliance with the constitution. No 18 matter how much you adjust the percentages, it 19 just does not do it; and I just want to be on 20 record that there is no way I support this. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, we 22 understand you voted. And that is accepted; but 23 now we must move on. We did vote that way. And 24 unless there is a motion to reconsider by someone 25 who voted on the prevailing side, that has been ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 621 1 decided. Reyna. 2 MS. REYNA: I just wanted to say 3 to the rest of you that if we changed our 4 constitution to direct this organization, because 5 the constitution doesn't change easily, to forever 6 be inequitable, that's a very difficult statement 7 about our organization that we choose inequitable 8 representation, that we take that out of our 9 constitution and choose inequitable representation 10 for our membership. I think that's a very 11 disturbing statement. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right, 13 Reyna. That's the second comment like that. 14 We've taken the vote; and I appreciate that 15 everyone doesn't agree with that vote, but that 16 vote is done. And now we need to move on 17 with -- is there something we want to do in 18 relation to the constitution because of that 19 action? Daubert. 20 MR. DAUBERT: I don't see that the 21 changing of that section of the bylaws precludes a 22 motion to be made to propose the 10-district Plan 23 C be adopted. I move that we adopt the 24 10-district Plan C. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think you ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 622 1 are right procedurally. Is there a second? 2 MS. HENDRICKSON: Second. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Second from 4 Hendrickson. Plan C is to be considered. Are we 5 ready for a vote on that one? No comments? Okay. 6 All right. Let's do a roll call vote. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 8 (Laughter due to change in order 9 of roll call.) 10 MS. WEAVER: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 12 MS. STRICKLAND: Yes. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 14 MR. PETER SNYDER: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 16 MS. HELEN SNYDER: No. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 18 MS. SENN: No. 19 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 20 MS. SAUM: No. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 22 MS. SANKEY: No. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 24 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: No. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 623 1 MS. REYNA: Yes. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 3 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 5 MR. PAGE: No. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 7 MS. MORFORD: Yes. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 9 MS. MAZE: No. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 11 MS. KEMPE: No. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 13 MS. HENDRICKSON: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 17 MR. GODDARD: No. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 19 MS. DEAN: No. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 21 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 23 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 25 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 624 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 2 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 4 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 6 MR. BURKS: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 8 MS. BRYAN: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 10 MS. BOZZO: No. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 12 MR. BITTER: Yes. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 14 MS. ANDERSON: No. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 16 MR. ALTHEIDE: No. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Eleven "yes." 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Eleven 19 "yes," 18 "no." That proposal C is defeated. So 20 each of the three proposals presented by the 21 committee at this point have been declined by the 22 board. Do you want to take any other action in 23 this area? Saum. 24 MS. SAUM: Just for clarification 25 on page three, Article 5, Board of Directors ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 625 1 Section 7, I make the motion that what needs to be 2 changed in the constitution is "Each district 3 shall elect at least one director each year and no 4 more than three." I substitute three for two. 5 That goes along with what we have just voted on 6 with the percentages, because one district has six 7 directors already and their percentages would 8 throw them into the seventh director. And that 9 would be for any other district that would get to 10 those numbers. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's 12 Section 7, Article 5 of Section 7. That's the 13 second phrase to that sentence. Actually the 14 third phrase of the sentence, "No more than three 15 full terms in any one year." 16 MR. ALTHEIDE: Second. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So did we 18 get a second from Altheide? 19 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 21 Discussion on the merits of changing that from two 22 to three in Section 7? 23 MS. HENNING: I just want to 24 remind you if you take this action, that districts 25 having three directors could have three new ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 626 1 directors in one year and there would no longer be 2 alternating terms. That was the intent of the 3 original language was to provide alternating terms 4 of retirement for reelection; and this would 5 effectively potentially do away with that. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Gustafson. 7 MS. GUSTAFSON: I realize this is 8 maybe a moot point; but I still have a problem 9 even with this with the over representation of 10 some districts when you break down the ratio of 11 the number of directors per membership within the 12 district. 13 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. It 14 doesn't address the -- all of what we've done 15 doesn't address the lower population districts. 16 That's true. But it is an item that we needed to 17 proceed with the action we've already taken. 18 That's why we're looking at it. Campbell, more 19 discussion? 20 MS. CAMPBELL: I have a question 21 of the chair, please. 22 MS. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 23 MS. CAMPBELL: And I think I 24 understand what you're saying, Betty. And do you 25 have an alternative that would accomplish the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 627 1 appropriate action? 2 MS. HENNING: We have presented 3 them. 4 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm sorry. Oh. 5 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Reyna. 6 MS. REYNA: Robin, I do submit if 7 you propose that change, then you have to deal 8 with Section 5. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 10 Reyna has an opinion on that. Does anyone else 11 wish to take that up? It isn't part of the motion 12 to address 5. The motion is only to address 7 and 13 the last phrase of 7. Are you ready for a vote on 14 that? Those in favor of changing that from a two 15 to a three will say "aye." 16 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Opposed 18 "no." 19 BOARD MEMBERS: No. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We need a 21 roll call. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 23 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 25 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 628 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 2 MR. BITTER: No. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 4 MS. BOZZO: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 6 MS. BRYAN: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: What did she say? 8 COURT REPORTER: "No." (SIC) "Yes." 9 (Court reporter inadvertently 10 heard a "no," which was later corrected in the 11 record by Philip Cassette.) 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 13 MR. BURKS: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 15 MS. CAMPBELL: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 17 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 19 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 21 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 23 MR. DAUBERT: No. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 25 MS. DEAN: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 629 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 2 MR. GODDARD: Yes. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 4 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 6 MS. HENDRICKSON: No. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 8 MS. KEMPE: Yes. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 10 MS. MAZE: Yes. 11 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 12 MS. MORFORD: No. 13 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 14 MR. PAGE: Yes. 15 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 16 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 17 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 18 MS. REYNA: I forgot. Nevermind. 19 Abstain. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 21 DR. JOAN DEAN ROWE: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 23 MS. SANKEY: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 25 MS. SAUM: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 630 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 2 MS. SENN: Yes. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 4 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Yes. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. 6 MR. SNYDER: Yes. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 8 MS. STRICKLAND: No. 9 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 10 MS. WEAVER: Yes. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We have 12 accepted that motion then. 21, is that what it 13 was? 14 MS. MCKENZIE: With eight "no," 15 one abstain. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 20 to eight 17 to one the vote was to accept the change. And 18 that means this would go to the membership for 19 ratification. And procedurally I would say that 20 it may mean that there would not be a change yet 21 in the next director's election. I'm not sure 22 that we will get through the process of member 23 ratification prior to that. I would say we would 24 try to do that; but I'm not sure we can make it. 25 MR. CASSETTE: Mr. President. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 631 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes, 2 Cassette. 3 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: I heard in 4 that last voting that I heard from Director Bryan 5 as a "yes." I heard the court reporter say that 6 she said "no." The Association Manager recorded 7 her as a "no"; but I clearly heard June as a 8 "yes." So there is a question on the last voting. 9 We need Director Bryan to clarify for the record 10 whether she voted "yes" or "no." 11 MS. BRYAN: I was a "yes." 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That makes 13 it 21 to 7 to 1? 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Yes. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: 21 to 7 to 16 1 on that vote. Actually this does complicate 17 things a bit. We do need to look at where we are 18 exactly. What you have is some more material 19 suggested by the committee that would have been 20 needed if we changed districts. That is what I'm 21 trying to get to here. Hopefully everybody is in 22 agreement with that unless you as a board still 23 feel that in addition to this change in allowing 24 seven directors per district that you may want a 25 redistricting of some kind. I think it's ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 632 1 important that the board here state whether or not 2 this is all that you really want to do or whether 3 you want to look at more redistricting plans in 4 the future. 5 We don't want the committee to work on this 6 more if this board feels that's all that is 7 needed, what you did is all that is needed. But 8 if there are enough of you concerned that you want 9 to look at another plan, we need to know that. 10 Hendrickson. 11 MS. HENDRICKSON: I would like to 12 see the Constitution & Bylaws Committee work on 13 other proposals for redistricting. I don't think 14 this is going to be popular in some areas with 15 what has been proposed here in changes. I still 16 think we need to address redistricting. 17 It's like anything you change. People are 18 anti change. Once things change they get used to 19 the changes. Changing district boundaries isn't 20 going to be any different than any other change. 21 Eventually people get used to it. There is a 22 great turnover in ADGA membership, new members, 23 old members. New people wouldn't know they were 24 different before. They would accept them the way 25 there were changed. I just think we need to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 633 1 really try to work out a plan where we can get 2 redistricting voted in. 3 MS. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We need to 4 know what the pleasure of the board is on that. 5 Gustafson. 6 MS. GUSTAFSON: I am in favor of 7 committee work on redistricting plans. I feel, 8 very strongly feel that we now have an inequitable 9 representation within our organization. And maybe 10 we put a Band-Aid on it; but I sure don't think we 11 have addressed the issue. 12 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Two opinions. 13 Strickland. 14 MS. STRICKLAND: Regardless of 15 what, in addition to what the members tell us, we 16 are the ones here that make this decision. And we 17 clearly voted down three redistricting plans, two 18 of which were very equitable, for whatever 19 reasons. 20 I know the committee, being on this, worked 21 for a long time and very hard. And to tell us to 22 go back and present you more plans where the 23 thought is in my estimation that you are not in 24 favor of redistricting, that you would rather 25 adjust triggers and try to give more ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 634 1 representation to those districts that are under 2 represented and not really look at the fact that 3 we have over representation, I don't see any point 4 to take it back to the committee. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: At some 6 point we do need to have a clear poll of the board 7 on exactly that point. Bryan. 8 MS. BRYAN: I voted against these 9 plans. I voted against these plans because the 10 majority of the membership that I seeked out and 11 spoke to told me they were against redistricting. 12 I physically spoke to these people. I went to 13 them. They did not come to me. I had to go to 14 them and asked them their opinions. They 15 overwhelmingly told me that they were not in favor 16 of redistricting. Two thirds of this board on 17 these three plans told you they were against these 18 plans. I think that's a clear answer to the 19 question you have just asked. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I can 21 accept it as that; but with the point that you 22 might consider that although each of them was 23 defeated by a large margin, the directors voting 24 for or against were changing. And you have to 25 wonder if there might possibly be a plan that more ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 635 1 of the directors would have agreed to; and that's 2 why this discussion is in order. Burks. 3 MR. BURKS: The majority of people 4 that I have talked to by a great margin aren't in 5 favor of redistricting. 6 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think 7 we're hearing from most of you that we really 8 don't need redistricting then. And if that's the 9 case, we don't need to ask the committee to do any 10 more work on this. Hendrickson. 11 MS. HENDRICKSON: Can I just make 12 one more comment? 13 MS. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 14 MS. HENDRICKSON: I just wonder if 15 not following our constitution for equitable 16 representation amongst the membership could have 17 any legal ramifications if somebody wanted to 18 press the issue. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 20 Nixon hasn't spoken on this. 21 MS. NIXON: I apologize to the 22 board. I missed this very important discussion; 23 and I'm really sorry I missed it. I am appalled 24 that I came back to find that the board has chosen 25 to do this. I had an emergency and had to leave. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 636 1 At some point this board has to decide to do the 2 hard thing because it's right. And, you know, I 3 don't know how anybody voted, so don't anybody 4 think I'm picking on you; but I am appalled that 5 all of the plans were defeated by this majority. 6 And I don't know how to fix it; but I don't think 7 we are representing the Association, and I agree 8 we are against the constitution. We're not 9 following the constitution. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Campbell. 11 MS. CAMPBELL: I agree with 12 Sheila. I think the board did clearly direct the 13 committee by a majority to work on this. And I 14 think in order to finish the discussion we had 15 today I would move that we continue, that we ask 16 the Constitution & Bylaws Committee to continue to 17 look at possible redistricting solutions. 18 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: That's the 19 motion. Do we have a second? 20 MR. DAUBERT: Second. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The motion 22 is to continue, for the Constitution Committee to 23 continue to look at redistricting. And I hope I 24 would be able to find a group that would do it 25 again. But anyway, that's before you. And that's ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 637 1 what we need. We need to know what the majority 2 of you think on that very question. I think we 3 need a roll call on that and I think we can just 4 go to it. So if you vote for this motion, that 5 means you still believe we need to have a 6 redistricting plan. If you're voting "no," you 7 feel that the action we've taken is sufficient to 8 make representation more equitable. 9 MS. HENNING: Daniel, may I make a 10 comment first? 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Sure. 12 MS. HENNING: Frankly, folks, I 13 don't know what more we can do than we have done. 14 And, you know, you can beat yourself against a 15 stone wall for so long; and you finally wake up 16 one day and say "Gee, I've got a headache." And 17 we went through many, many plans to bring these 18 three plans to you. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. It's 20 time for a roll call. Go ahead, Shirley. 21 MS. MCKENZIE: Ruth Weaver. 22 MS. WEAVER: No. 23 MS. MCKENZIE: Chris Strickland. 24 MS. STRICKLAND: Yes. 25 MS. MCKENZIE: Pete Snyder. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 638 1 MR. SNYDER: Yes. 2 MS. MCKENZIE: Helen Snyder. 3 MS. HELEN SNYDER: Yes. 4 MS. MCKENZIE: Karen Senn. 5 MS. SENN: Yes. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Robin Saum. 7 MS. SAUM: Yes. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Charlotte Sankey. 9 MS. SANKEY: No. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Joan Dean Rowe. 11 DR. DEAN ROWE: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Shari Reyna. 13 MS. REYNA: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Laurie Petersen. 15 MS. PETERSON: Yes. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Carl Page. 17 MR. PAGE: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Morford. 19 MS. MORFORD: I am in favor of 20 districting and equitable representation for our 21 members, yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: Annette Maze. 23 MS. MAZE: Yes. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Bonnie Kempe. 25 MS. KEMPE: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 639 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Pat Hendrickson. 2 MS. HENDRICKSON: Yes. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Marsha Gustafson. 4 MS. GUSTAFSON: I do favor 5 equitable representation, yes. 6 MS. MCKENZIE: Noah Goddard. 7 MR. GODDARD: No. 8 MS. MCKENZIE: Patricia Dean. 9 MS. DEAN: Yes. 10 MS. MCKENZIE: Dave Daubert. 11 MR. DAUBERT: Yes. 12 MS. MCKENZIE: Harvey Considine. 13 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Yes. 14 MS. MCKENZIE: Daniel Considine. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: No. 16 MS. MCKENZIE: Phil Cassette. 17 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Yes. 18 MS. MCKENZIE: Linda Campbell. 19 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. 20 MS. MCKENZIE: Jamie Burks. 21 MR. BURKS: Yes. 22 MS. MCKENZIE: June Bryan. 23 MS. BRYAN: No. 24 MS. MCKENZIE: Kristina Bozzo. 25 MS. BOZZO: No. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 640 1 MS. MCKENZIE: Allen Bitter. 2 MR. BITTER: Yes. 3 MS. MCKENZIE: Donna Anderson. 4 MS. ANDERSON: No. 5 MS. MCKENZIE: George Altheide. 6 MR. ALTHEIDE: No. 7 MS. MCKENZIE: Nine "no." 8 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Nine "no," 9 and 20 "yes." So the committee has work to do yet 10 to try to bring us a proposal that we can accept. 11 Reyna. 12 MS. REYNA: I would just like to 13 personally apologize to the Constitution Committee 14 that put forth this level of effort. And I just 15 hope we can find anybody that is willing to beat 16 their head against the wall another year. 17 MS. HENNING: All you that spoke, 18 yes, I have your names down and will be contacting 19 you all. 20 (Laughter and applause.) 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Cassette, 22 please. 23 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Some 24 suggestion or a comment back, in looking at it, 25 and I don't know who made it. Maybe it was Pat ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 641 1 Hendrickson who made the comment about change. 2 And, yes, change is difficult. One of the things 3 that I've always learned and dealt with is 4 incremental change sometimes is better than trying 5 to push the whole thing through at once. And I 6 would ask the committee to look at incrementally 7 changing some of the boundaries in order to come 8 into more equitable representation, specifically 9 the large districts and dividing them. 10 Another specific would be to look at the 11 provision within the constitution that requires 12 three directors per district. I think there are 13 other alternatives if you look outside the box as 14 opposed to staying within the bylaws only, because 15 no matter what we're going to do, it's probably 16 going to require a constitutional change. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Snyder. 18 MS. HELEN SNYDER: I agree with 19 Phil as well. And we did address the higher end 20 where they needed more representation. Why 21 couldn't we do the same thing on the lower end and 22 reduce the minimum? 23 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Campbell. 24 MS. CAMPBELL: I would just 25 respectfully ask all the board members who do have ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 642 1 opinions and constructive ideas or objections to 2 some of the proposals that were presented to us to 3 please give that information to the Constitution 4 Committee so they do have some idea about what you 5 find objectionable or what you find would be 6 helpful in the process. If they don't get that 7 feedback and find out what people objected to, it 8 makes it very difficult to come up with a proposal 9 that is acceptable. 10 MS. HENNING: If I might address 11 that. These proposals have been in your hands 12 since June. And if we had gotten feedback to the 13 committee during that time period, I think it 14 might have been very helpful to us. And so if you 15 do have feedback, if you do have strong opinions, 16 I would certainly appreciate the comments. And 17 they need to be addressed to the chair and to the 18 committee, not discussed elsewhere in cyber world. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Do 20 we need to keep going with this? Bryan, all 21 right. 22 MS. BRYAN: When the -- I would 23 like to see the plans when they are developed go 24 out in the newsletter again; and this time to have 25 a poll of membership so the membership has a way ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 643 1 to respond to the office so we have an official 2 record of what the membership feels about these 3 plans. 4 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: So noted. 5 Is there any other activity that we need to 6 accomplish? Strickland. 7 MS. STRICKLAND: Just one comment 8 about the fact that we fixed the upper end. 9 Because if we look at the number of members per 10 director and equate district four with district 11 one, we need 14 directors in that district. 12 That's still not equitable. So even though we've 13 made a little change here incrementally, I just 14 want to go on record that still is not equitable. 15 And if we can't come to any decision on 16 equitability, then that is something that ought to 17 come out of the constitution. 18 MS. HENNING: In light of Chris' 19 comment, if we look at the Directors section, page 20 three, Section 5, "The directorial district shall 21 be created to facilitate equitable representation 22 of all sections of the USA." Since you have today 23 chosen, specifically voted not to do that I really 24 think you need to address that sentence in the 25 constitution and suggest that you just remove it ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 644 1 and just eliminate that sentence from the 2 constitution. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 4 We've spent a lot of time on this; and yet it's 5 not really a surprise, because we knew this would 6 be a hard one, it would be hard to get through 7 this material. If there is no other action that 8 we need to take in the area of Constitution at 9 this time, I think the rest of the material from 10 the committee we don't need to handle. Right? 11 MS. HENNING: There is one other. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. 13 MS. HENNING: Okay. The material 14 under Section 6, Article 2, Board of Directors 15 obviously we aren't going to. We aren't going to 16 do that since there was no redistricting. However 17 the issues to be handled by the committee next 18 year in addition to the directive that you have 19 just given us I refer you to Items 6 and 7 in our 20 work to be completed by next year's committee and 21 our long-term goals. 22 Earlier, I guess it was early in October I 23 received input from Daniel asking us to look at 24 elections, timing and all that kind of stuff. I 25 already have that in the goals for next year's ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 645 1 committee; and I received comment back from fewer 2 than half of my committee members on that issue. 3 So that will be not considered until next year; 4 but we will be looking at those issues that I know 5 have been addressed by, as concerns by several 6 members, so we will be looking at that. 7 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 8 I think we are finally done with this area. We 9 need to go to -- I think the other item that would 10 be next is Government Liaison. But do we want a 11 break first? Okay. Break first, and then we'll 12 do the Government Liaison Committee. Berry, yes. 13 MS. BERRY: I thought that 14 Registration was going to be next. We were 15 scheduled for 1:00 o'clock. 16 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: You were 17 scheduled for 1:00. Sorry about that. I am told 18 that this won't take long. And there are two 19 speakers that are supposed to speak a very short 20 time, although you have a speaker as well. 21 MS. BERRY: Yes. 22 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: But there 23 are two speakers, and then we'll do Registration. 24 MS. BERRY: Okay. That's fine. 25 (Recess.) ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 646 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It's almost 2 time to start again. We did have scheduled 3 Registration. We will get to that hopefully soon; 4 but Government Liaison is first because there are 5 a couple of people here that would like to speak 6 to us regarding requests from this committee. 7 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you very 8 much. This is your ADGA Government & 9 International Liaison Committee report. If you'll 10 notice in the report that I sent out initially of 11 August 31, it did indicate there would be an 12 addendum to follow, and the addendum was 13 distributed a little while ago. But before I get 14 to that I wanted to see if there were any 15 questions about what was presented in the other 16 information, and then I'll move into the proposal 17 that we're submitting. 18 And I will note now that with some of these 19 things, since I do have a number of hats with 20 other organizations, they may really not fall 21 under this committee; but I'm putting them there 22 because they seemed appropriate. But if you have 23 any questions about those, I would be glad to 24 entertain those. If not, I'll move to the 25 addendum. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 647 1 Before I move there, I want to make one 2 quick comment. If you'll notice, the reference to 3 the NSIIC, the National Sheep Industry Improvement 4 Center, just a real quick report. I think last 5 year we briefly discussed drouth payments for 6 goats. And goats were not originally included in 7 that legislation from Congress. We worked with 8 the American Sheep Industry and we got goats 9 included. Just to give you some handle on the 10 participation by goat producers in the drouth 11 program last year, I have USDA figures that eight 12 million, over eight million dollars were paid out 13 to goat producers in the United States for that 14 drouth payment. And that was solely because we 15 did work with the sheep industry. And they very 16 kindly assisted us in getting included in that 17 legislation, just to give you some hint of the 18 kind of assistance we can get with some of these 19 groups. 20 Now if we'll move to the addendum, this 21 proposal we're asking for support for the United 22 States Goat Council. Those of you who were on the 23 board in 1994 might remember that this came to the 24 board, a very similar type of proposal. The board 25 did adopt the proposal, supported the concept; but ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 648 1 there were difficulties at that time, I think, and 2 communication was one of the big difficulties we 3 had. But the board did support the concept of 4 working with an organization, the creation of an 5 organization that would allow national 6 representation of the goat industry, of the meat, 7 dairy, and fiber components specifically; but it 8 doesn't preclude other components might be 9 included such as the pet goats or the pack goats 10 or other avenues of goat ventures that might be 11 included; but the focus was to try to bring the 12 main, active groups together. 13 And the meeting in August that I think I 14 have previously reported to the board, a meeting 15 was held; and as was mentioned in the Executive 16 Committee report, we did have ADGA representation 17 there. I was attending as chair of the Sheep 18 Center, but also of course representing ADGA in a 19 role as a supporting role; and in that, during 20 that meeting we had the opportunity to hear from 21 the other industries and came together with some 22 of the things that we see as areas of joint 23 interest which I've outlined here some of those 24 kind of briefly. But that's the organization 25 would be something that would be a national ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 649 1 representative group bringing together the various 2 aspects of the goat industry and trying to work 3 together to find and identify the areas that we do 4 have in common and the areas that we can work on 5 and benefit one another. 6 And I'm just going to pass around; and this 7 is not something that you can retain. If you'll 8 just pass this around just to give you some idea 9 (indicting). I mentioned the National Institute 10 for Animal Agriculture, that organization has 11 groups of the various species, livestock species, 12 and goats aren't included. Well, I won't say 13 goats are not included. There is no goat 14 particular. There's sheep and goats; but it's an 15 organization that ADGA could join. And I think it 16 would be in the neighborhood -- I should look 17 before I give a quote; but I'm saying about $500 18 or perhaps higher than that amount. 19 And our thought was this would be a perfect 20 example of an area where the Goat Council could 21 work towards representation there and bring in the 22 support from the other, the fiber and dairy 23 industries. So instead of ADGA paying $500 to be 24 a member, the National Goat Council could be a 25 member and we'd have a much smaller amount that we ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 650 1 could contribute and still be a very viable part 2 of the industry. 3 And they do print -- right now this is the 4 NIAA I just mentioned (indicating). They do 5 produce various health reports from the other 6 species. So if we were a represented species, a 7 separate species, we would have this kind of 8 effort to create reports that have what's 9 happening in the industry. This is a health focus 10 in particular. It would just give us much more 11 respectability and credibility in the world of 12 livestock. 13 I'm also going to pass around in this 14 bulletin you'll see a couple of very colorful 15 handouts, lamb handouts; and these were produced 16 with money from the American Marketing Service 17 primarily through the American Sheep Industry. So 18 this is the kind of thing we could get support for 19 dairy goat products, for meat product, for 20 promotion and awareness for consumer education. 21 So these are the kinds of areas that those 22 of us who have been involved in the initial plan 23 see as areas that we could work together and get 24 some effort together for us to be able to be 25 respected, if you will, and have the credibility ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 651 1 that the other species do. 2 During that, just this morning one of the 3 speakers that I had hoped to be able to attend was 4 Robert Sweezey with I believe his title is the 5 executive director of the American Boer Goat 6 Association. And he wasn't able to stay with us. 7 And he did tell me an interesting story that I 8 thought would be very appropriate to kind of 9 demonstrate the idea of how we could be recognized 10 as an industry. 11 Just recently there was a Department of 12 Defense bid that was released; and they were 13 securing bids for hides, goat hides to create 14 bomber jackets, which in the previous World War 15 goat hides were used. But it was a situation that 16 they did not suspect that there was a supply of 17 goat hides in the United States. 18 So the way these bids work is they open 19 these bids to international bids if there are not 20 enough supply in the United States. Had we had a 21 central organization to say "Okay. This is goats. 22 We could speak to that," we could have worked with 23 them to identify locations that would have hides; 24 but they immediately jumped to, you know, the 25 presumption that it was not an industry that could ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 652 1 supply this, this product. And so that's just a 2 typical situation where had we had visibility as a 3 national organization, that would have been the 4 first place they would have turned to find out 5 where and how they could locate or at least 6 identify there would be people who would like to 7 bid on this project from the United States. So 8 that's just an example. Okay. I think that's 9 basically it. You have had some of this 10 information I've given you previously. I have 11 just summarized it here. 12 I would like to give Jim Rosenbaum a chance 13 to tell us a few words. He was in attendance with 14 us at the goat meeting we had in Chicago; and his 15 group I believe has been very supportive. And if 16 you'll notice at the bottom of this, it indicates 17 that there has been about $6,000 committed already 18 to this organization from the meat goat industry. 19 And Jim, I'll just let you come up and say a few 20 words. 21 MR. ROSENBAUM: I'll say this: 22 You folks are thorough. 23 (Laughter.) 24 MR. ROSENBAUM: I'm here to ask 25 for money, so right off I need to loosen you up a ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 653 1 little bit. We feel that this U.S. Goat Council 2 has got some merit for the goat industry. And the 3 goat industry should be the "goat industry," not 4 just the milk goats and the dairy goats. This 5 should be an industry that stands forth unified so 6 people will recognize what a big and growing and 7 healthy industry that it is. And both sides of 8 the industry can become healthier I think by 9 working together. 10 The Australians right now are importing 11 nearly 300 metric tons of goat meat into the 12 United States every month. And if it wasn't for 13 that right now, we couldn't keep up or we couldn't 14 supply the demand for the goat meat in the United 15 States at the point it is now. If we tried to 16 meet the demand of goat meat with our domestic 17 goats, we'd be out of goats in this country in 11 18 months. So this is an industry that is growing. 19 There is a big crossover. "Meat goats need milk; 20 milk goats need meat," because here is an industry 21 that is just growing faster than any of us ever 22 dreamed it would grow. 23 So with this Goat Council we can have some 24 representation to maybe get some subsidies, get 25 some help on the protection of some of our cheeses ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 654 1 that is coming in from Europe. There's all kind 2 of ways we can help this industry if we can just 3 get some united representation out front there. 4 And there's not a whole lot I can say. I could go 5 on here for a long time; but you guys -- 6 MS. CAMPBELL: But we wouldn't let 7 you, of course. 8 MR. ROSENBAUM: -- have got to be 9 tired. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. ROSENBAUM: You guys probably 12 want to do something else. So we're just asking 13 for your support for a thousand dollars to help 14 create this Council in its infancy here to get off 15 the ground so we can go get some government grants 16 and some government support; but we have to be an 17 entity before we can start. Any questions? I 18 take that as a "yes." 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. ROSENBAUM: There you go. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 22 The request is not a committee request per se. 23 The amount was just received. Is that right? 24 MS. CAMPBELL: Correct. As I was 25 trying to say earlier, I did put this on the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 655 1 letterhead for the committee; but it's really a 2 little bit different, because it's a focus that 3 has come together from the Sheep Center. Since my 4 role has been the Sheep Center, and in this it 5 just basically kind of migrated this direction. 6 So if it's in order, Mr. President, if you 7 would accept, I would like to make a motion that 8 we move, make a motion to support the U.S. Goat 9 Council in the funding of $1,000. 10 MS. HENDRICKSON: Second. 11 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. Second 12 from Hendrickson on that. Discussion on the 13 motion? Cassette. 14 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: Linda, if 15 you could just tell us, and on under Plan of Work, 16 the second page it says "Initiate appointment of 17 board of directors." Is it at this point the 18 thought process is to have representation from 19 ADGA on the board? And who would that be? How is 20 this, how is that going to work? Is there a plan 21 there, or when will that come together? 22 MS. CAMPBELL: I'll be glad to 23 address that. Since we don't have that group yet, 24 you know, we thought it might be appropriate for 25 that group to at least be initially assembled and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 656 1 then let that group decide how to set dues, how to 2 establish representation. If we have individuals 3 at least initially, and if you'll note that with 4 the group that assembled in Chicago they asked me 5 to serve as the initial president to move this 6 forward; and I agreed to do that and the vice 7 president is with the American Meat Goat 8 Association. We needed to start somewhere. 9 But our preference would be before we, you 10 know, got a lot further in the process would be to 11 establish representation at least initially two to 12 three people from each of the industry segments; 13 and then that group would begin to establish, to 14 finish the draft for the bylaws, to establish the 15 plan of work that would bring us to the next step, 16 and then perhaps it could be the board would 17 select or the Executive Committee would select 18 representation. That's the board's choice. 19 With the other groups I think the executive 20 director of those groups are participating 21 members, and in one case I believe it is a board 22 member. So that's not for the group to decide 23 initially, you know, what the composition will be, 24 how they will be selected. We need to start 25 somewhere. So as I said, I would continue; and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 657 1 then we would hopefully there would be at least 2 one other appointment by the Executive Committee 3 or appointment by the board, whatever your 4 preference for that process would be to get the 5 initial representation in place. Does that answer 6 your question? 7 MR. PHILIP CASSETTE: (Nods 8 affirmatively.) 9 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay. 10 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Daubert. 11 MR. DAUBERT: When I deal with 12 USDA one of the comments that is consistently made 13 is that the goat industry is the only one that's 14 not represented by an industry. When others go to 15 USDA it is the buffalo industry as a collective 16 unit or the rabbits or the emus or whatever. It 17 is always a group. And the goats are the only 18 ones that go in individually to USDA. So this is 19 a good step. One industry goes in and represents. 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Rowe. 21 DR. DEAN ROWE: I also speak in 22 favor of this motion. We have some fairly 23 significant animal identification issues that will 24 be coming before us over the next several years; 25 and this would serve as an excellent forum for ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 658 1 unifying and making uniform recommendations in 2 terms of long-term parental identification and 3 other health issues. 4 MR. HARVEY CONSIDINE: Question. 5 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All those 6 in favor of this proposal to set aside $1,000 for 7 a new organization that is formed will say "yes." 8 BOARD MEMBERS: Yes. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: "No"? 10 (None.) Abstaining? Abstain from Kempe. 11 Unanimous. Not unanimous. One abstention, but 12 all other in favor. That is the only action of 13 the committee. 14 MS. CAMPBELL: On that issue. 15 Thank you very much. And we really appreciate 16 that vote of confidence, and we hope to return 17 that vote of confidence with some activity that 18 we'll be able to report to you and receive input 19 from you throughout the year. 20 The other thing that I would like to 21 address, and Joanie if you would come up with me 22 as well, as we reported earlier, Joanie and I 23 serve on the U.S. Animal Health Identification 24 Plan Task Force, which is a big mouthful, and 25 we've passed around earlier a news release draft ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 659 1 that at the top has the "U.S. Animal Health 2 Association Accepts This Plan." And we are 3 committee members on this task force and we have 4 different roles on that task force; but we 5 ultimately are representing goats and the interest 6 of goat producers and trying to come up with 7 palatable, if you will, plans that will work. 8 As this effort moves forward we expect to 9 see in the coming years requirements for animals 10 to be identified; and we feel fortunate, and I 11 think Joanie is in agreement, that we are 12 fortunate that we do at least have a seat at the 13 table. So we are discussing this and giving our 14 input. And what ultimately happens will be out of 15 our hands, I guess; but this is the time for us to 16 give that input. And I'll let Joanie add some 17 additional comments. 18 DR. DEAN ROWE: I would just, the 19 press release I think one is included in your 20 materials; and at this point there has been a 21 resolution approving the concept through U.S. 22 Animal Health Association, and at this point then 23 I believe the next step is that more commodity 24 input will be sought, and it's unclear yet how 25 that will happen. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 660 1 But Linda has posted material on the ADGA 2 website. 3 MS. CAMPBELL: The link. 4 DR. DEAN-ROWE: The link to the 5 summary plan. I think we have each passed around 6 our copy so you can see it; but so stay tuned to 7 the ADGA website for updates. And, you know, 8 please try to stay informed; and we'll try to keep 9 you alerted as new information comes about or 10 opportunities for you to provide input in the 11 process. 12 MS. CAMPBELL: Just one other 13 comment: This is definitely a draft, so you are 14 the first group to see this, because it hasn't 15 been released. That's one of my responsibilities 16 is to assist with communication; and so I will be 17 releasing this to the website tonight if I get 18 finished. But the website, as you'll notice on 19 here, is USAIP.info. And so that will be the 20 location, and that's where Jim has linked from the 21 ADGA site to this location, and we will continue 22 to provide updates through that location. 23 And the booklet that is going around that 24 the task force, that big chunk there, bound is 25 actually available in PDF download from USAIP.info ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 661 1 if you'd like to spend some great deal of time 2 reading it. 3 But do any of you have any questions about 4 the U.S. Animal ID program that Joanie or I could 5 answer? Morford. 6 MS. MORFORD: Have there been any 7 suggestions of what might be used? The tattoos? 8 DR. DEAN ROWE: Let met just point 9 out this task force is sort of a big-picture task 10 force where people actually were asked to step 11 away from their species or industries or 12 affiliations and develop concepts. And you'll 13 note as you look at the website that's where it 14 says "Draft Plan For Sheep," that those are blank 15 at this point. 16 And so while some ideas were certainly 17 bantered around, where these sort of concepts came 18 into play, for example, I served on the Standards 19 Subcommittee. Linda actually was on the 20 Communications Subcommittee. And you should be 21 aware that she was the one that set up the 22 communication site for the entire group; and I 23 think she deserves a lot of recognition for that 24 in that the visibility with our industry was quite 25 significant. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 662 1 In the Standards area, for example, I 2 helped provide input; but alternate ID fields 3 would be needed and along with other commodities 4 recognize the need for promoting the concept of 5 IDs that are already accepted in other programs. 6 For example, the Scrapie programs would be the 7 most effective first step and recognizing those as 8 IDs, and that we need to be much more flexible in 9 terms of timing implementation and concepts that 10 may or may not work in terms of forms of 11 identification for various species, which you are 12 well aware of in the goats. 13 So it's still at the more the concept 14 level. And then the next step will be developing 15 draft plans with time goals for implementation; 16 and we visualized like the Scrapie forms of 17 identification that are currently accepted would 18 be the form of input that we would expect to see 19 utilized for goats for the early implementation 20 phases. I hope I'm not overstating this. 21 MS. CAMPBELL: No. Absolutely. 22 This process has involved, just to give you an 23 overview, we've had two meetings in Kansas City; 24 and there are approximately 100 people in this 25 task force, just to give you some, you know, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 663 1 concept of how it is. 2 DR. DEAN ROWE: And conference 3 calls. 4 MS. CAMPBELL: And conference 5 calls about every other week that last several 6 hours sometimes. So there is a great deal of 7 intersection with other people in the industry and 8 quite a bit of representation from APHIS and some 9 other USDA industries agencies that are involved 10 and folks from the TAG industries. And so these 11 are these people who have been getting together to 12 try to discuss some of the issues that we see need 13 to be resolved. 14 And it's been I think a great opportunity 15 for the goat industry to get some visibility, 16 because they, you know, they want to hear and 17 they've been respectfully receiving our input. 18 And I think that's an accomplishment that we can, 19 you know, take forward. And Joanie is absolutely 20 correct that the proposal I think we will be 21 seeing very shortly that from the goat side that 22 the current Scrapie with some modifications to 23 include other ages and sexes or whethers, for 24 example, that have not previously be included in 25 the Scrapie program, but using that as the basis ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 664 1 to at least get our initial program as an accepted 2 program for goats for National Animal I.D. on the 3 ground. 4 DR. DEAN ROWE: Which is what 5 would be proposed. 6 MS. CAMPBELL: Right. That's what 7 we are proposing. There will be industry input 8 opportunity, as you'll see in the handout on the 9 draft news release. I mean, there will be 10 additional input; but we have to start somewhere, 11 so this is the initial proposal rather than some 12 of the things that could be handed to us. Any 13 other questions? 14 And then Dr. Cindy Wolfe is actually on the 15 steering committee for the task force. And many 16 of you may remember seeing her at the conference 17 in Maryland. And she works with sheep and goats 18 in a number of capacities and is a veterinarian 19 from Minnesota, and she's been very helpful in 20 helping to make sure we keep the goat focus and 21 keeping that visibility as well. 22 If there are no other questions about that, 23 perhaps we could just move into a brief report 24 from Joanie from the Scrapie program. 25 DR. DEAN ROWE: And again, not to ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 665 1 take a lot of our time here; but I did want to 2 give some brief oral report to you. I serve as 3 the liaison for the Scrapie Oversight Board for 4 the American Diary Goat Association. I've had a 5 lot of referrals from office with people seeking 6 information and assistance in interpreting the 7 identification regulations relative to tattoos and 8 so on, participated in the Scrape Oversight 9 conference calls, and recently attended the 10 oversight meeting of the U.S. Animal Health 11 Association. 12 And I'll again guide you to the website in 13 that the appropriate Scrapie links are there on 14 our ADGA website; and if you have members that 15 need assistance or you'd like some information, 16 I'd be happy to work with you. 17 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 18 That's another committee done though. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Now we are 21 going to do the Registration Committee. That's 22 the one that was scheduled for after lunch. We're 23 a bit later than that; but we have a lot of work 24 to do in Registration. Berry. 25 MS. BERRY: Hi. The Registration ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 666 1 Committee, some of whom are here, has worked very 2 hard this year; and I really would like to 3 acknowledge the fact that every member of this 4 committee worked, submitted proposals, discussion, 5 completed their assignments and voted on 6 everything. So it may be a first time in ADGA 7 history that the entire committee worked. And 8 they really did a wonderful job. I'm proud of 9 them. 10 We had a lot of things to do this year; and 11 so just very quickly these are the subjects we'll 12 be addressing, and I'll talk about them each 13 individually: The Sables last year the board 14 directed us, Jamie Burks made a proposal that we 15 look at, that we consider a sub herd book for 16 Sables. In addition to that President Considine 17 instructed us to look at all the possibilities 18 that might include where we could put the Sable 19 Saanen dairy goats. 20 We certainly did that. We went for just 21 looking at a sub herd book. We consulted the 22 Saanen breeders and asked them to do a survey, 23 which they did, and returned to us with 24 interesting results. We contacted the American 25 Kennel Club. Paul Adams in the back had a long ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 667 1 correspondence with the American Kennel Club. 2 Greta Meyer contacted the Paint Horse Association. 3 We had information from the Angus, Red Angus, Red 4 Holstein, Angora Goats. 5 I have, I've brought all the stuff here, 6 the evidence in case somebody says "Well, what did 7 you do?" Well, we did a whole lot of stuff. And 8 we got really very fascinating correspondence 9 back; and it really did help us a lot in 10 formulating the proposal that we're going to bring 11 to you on Sables. 12 We had some charges on the Nigerian Dwarf 13 admission to the registry; and we also covered 14 those including how we would do reregistrations 15 and the prefix that would occur in front of the 16 Nigerian Dwarf reregistered into the American 17 Dairy Goat Association. 18 We discussed breed designations within the 19 Experimental Registry, and we have a proposal on 20 that. We discussed microchipping; and we are 21 privileged to have Elsie McCoy here from EZ ID -- 22 they gave me a pen so I wouldn't forget who they 23 are -- who is going to answer any questions that 24 we have on microchipping. We discussed 25 registration of animals with breed specific ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 668 1 disqualifications, which was also brought up at 2 last year's meeting and which Alice Orzechowski 3 worked hard to bring a proposal to us, which we 4 will be bringing to you. Reregistration of 5 animals with breed specific qualifications, 6 because once you decide that they can't be 7 registered you have to decide what happens. 8 Cloning. Electronic registrations, we are coming 9 up with a proposal on that. And a proposal on a 10 Lamancha tweak, tweak for that herd book. 11 Does everybody have their Sable proposal? 12 Moving right along to our first proposal. You all 13 received a copy of the proposal. Now this has 14 been 23 years in the making actually and longer 15 than that. I have quotations from "Saanen Roots" 16 here which I'll read if we have time. 17 But basically we've been looking at what to 18 do with the colored Saanens for 23 years. I 19 remember when Don West brought this to the 20 Registration Committee in 1981; and at that time 21 we did not feel that we had enough information to 22 do a separate herd book; but we did approve a 23 breed standard to put in for Sable breeders to 24 work towards. And many people have worked on this 25 through the years; and especially Don West and ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 669 1 Diane Gray should be recognized for the hard work 2 they did. But they've met with many brick walls; 3 and I was one of them. 4 And, you know, I have to tell you sometimes 5 we grow up and mature; and as I looked at this 6 situation through the years and gathered more 7 information and realized the frequency with which 8 the Sables were born into the Saanen breed I 9 realized that they really did need a place to go. 10 And even last year when we presented a proposal 11 which wasn't acceptable to the board I was looking 12 for what to do. So we came up with a different 13 proposal this year; and it's basically the same 14 proposal that the International Sable Breeders 15 brought to us last year. 16 The big difference with our proposal last 17 year and their proposal was their proposal allowed 18 for the direct migration from the Saanen Purebred 19 and Saanen American herd books into a Sable herd 20 book. I have worked very hard with Donna Palmer 21 all year who is the person who has worked on this 22 for the Sable breeders; and she put together this 23 wonderful book. The Executive Committee agreed 24 with the Registration Committee that all the 25 information needed to be verified. And so Jim ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 670 1 Wilson, who is to be thanked both by the 2 Registration Committee and the Sable Breeders, 3 verified all the pedigrees in here. So this is 4 not information that the Sable Breeders came up 5 with. This is from the herd books in our office. 6 I'm not going to go -- you have had this 7 for a couple of days, and you've had the proposal 8 since August 31st, so I hope you have read it. 9 DR. DEAN ROWE: Could I get a 10 clarification about the list of animals? 11 MS. BERRY: Yes. 12 DR. DEAN ROWE: I think the report 13 said that some owners had the opportunity to 14 voluntarily remove their animals. 15 MS. BERRY: Yes. 16 DR. DEAN ROWE: Did all owners 17 have a chance to see that their animals would be 18 included in this? That was a point that came up 19 last year, I believe. 20 MS. BERRY: What I suggested to 21 Donna was that if we had any information that 22 there was any question that a breeder did not want 23 their animal in here, that she contact them 24 personally and ask them permission, which she did. 25 So to the best of my knowledge the animals are in ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 671 1 here with the agreement of the owners. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. It's 3 before you as a package to basically accept 4 proposal number one; and the details of proposal 5 number one are the explanations in this booklet. 6 Rowe. 7 DR. DEAN ROWE: Please be patient 8 with me, Lelia. 9 MS. BERRY: Yes. 10 DR. DEAN ROWE: But could you 11 describe then the process by which -- 12 MS. BERRY: Sure. 13 DR. DEAN ROWE: -- what happens to 14 the colored goats going one way and what happens 15 to the white goats going the other way? 16 MS. BERRY: Yes. You haven't read 17 the proposal. 18 DR. DEAN ROWE: Well, I have; 19 but -- 20 MS. BERRY: That's okay. I 21 thought I might have to do this. And if you'll 22 look at the statistics in here, the front page, I 23 had her, Donna put the particulars of the 24 statistics in here so that you would be able to 25 see them. And the numbers here in the database ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 672 1 give the total since basically we've been looking. 2 So say since 1981. And then the last 10 years 3 there are -- in the last 10 years, and we can 4 assume that a number of the animals since it's 10 5 years may still be alive. So you know, perhaps 6 the animals before that are not still alive; but 7 they're in the database. The purebreds in the 8 last 10 years, 111. That means purebred, a 9 colored animal directly from two purebred Saanens; 10 Americans, 448, and 34 percent of the Americans 11 had one purebred parent. 12 Your question about what happens to many 13 colored animals is very valid; and here is what 14 happens. Okay. So if we set up a herd book and 15 extract the animals from these herd books that are 16 listed, there is Purebred, American and then 17 Grade. I had her put them Purebred, American and 18 Grade in different colors. If a white animal is 19 born to two purebred Sables, it will go into the 20 Experimental herd book and will be graded up 21 whatever way you would grade up any animal that 22 goes into the Experimental herd book as being for 23 breed. It's incorrect for the Sable breed, so the 24 person could go toward back into the Saanen herd 25 book, toward the Sable herd book or towards the ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 673 1 Nubian herd book. So it's the same grading up 2 process. 3 Actually this process parallels all of our 4 other herd books with the one exception that we do 5 allow for the direct migration from American and 6 the Saanen herd books into the Sable, American and 7 Saanen herd books. Okay. The other, the Grade 8 herd book would be populated exactly as all the 9 other Grade herd books are populated, by 10 percentage. I'll be glad to answer any questions. 11 I have worked and studied this a lot. Pat 12 Morford. 13 MS. MORFORD: I move that we 14 accept the Sable proposal number one. 15 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: It doesn't 16 really require a motion; but it is before us then. 17 Everyone ready on that? No more discussion 18 needed? We do have some questions? Okay. 19 Gustafson. 20 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm assuming that 21 this entire package is what we're about to vote 22 on. I have a question on page two where it states 23 that the height and weight working in current 24 standards to evaluation of defects section for 25 Sables to be provided uniformly, breed standards, ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 674 1 to move that information into it. 2 MS. BERRY: Yes. 3 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have a question. 4 I assume that if they are white or light cream or 5 have pendulous ears, that those will be 6 disqualifying defects. Will that information not 7 be put over? 8 MS. BERRY: Yes. The information 9 that goes into the evaluation of defects will be 10 moved into the proper place as are the others. 11 One of the things I asked them to do that 12 differs from last year's proposal they had the 13 breed standards in their proposal. And I said 14 "No. That needs to be in a different section and 15 you also need to change those weight requirements, 16 because you cannot have a height and weight 17 requirement at maturity when animals are 18 registered when they're kids." So I asked them to 19 change that and move that, so Donna has covered 20 that in these changes on page two. 21 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is that 22 clear? I think the question was is the wording 23 clear here that they can't be white? Was that 24 your question? 25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 675 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Is that 2 clearly stated here, or does something need to be 3 added, Lelia? It is stated here? 4 MS. BERRY: Yes. 5 MS. GUSTAFSON: The coloration and 6 the ear set. 7 MS. BERRY: Yes. 8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I wanted to make 9 sure that it's clearly stated that those would be 10 disqualifications and listed as such in the 11 Guidebook. 12 MS. BERRY: It will be. This is 13 not part of their proposal because it belongs in a 14 different place. The proposal for a herd book 15 doesn't include that. But there will be, yes. 16 MS. GUSTAFSON: I was asking for 17 clarification. 18 MS. BERRY: Yes. Absolutely. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Okay. We 20 have Saum has comments. 21 MS. SAUM: I just want to know 22 when does it start, when are you proposing this 23 starts, when does ADGA have to be ready to, when 24 do we need to be ready to register these animals? 25 What's the time frame? ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 676 1 MS. BERRY: That would be up to 2 the board. We're just asking that this be 3 approved. I would assume you can give them the 4 five years that we've done with other herd books 5 that are being opened, or you could -- these 6 people have waited a long time, and you could do 7 something else if you chose. But this is the 8 proposal that is before you. 9 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: The answer 10 is that there isn't a time set here. The board 11 could either set a time or just ask that it be 12 implemented, the herd book be opened when the 13 programming is ready. Those are options you would 14 have. Altheide. 15 MR. ALTHEIDE: I know people are 16 probably dreading me speaking about this. But for 17 a long time I've had, been labeled as anti Sable. 18 I'm not anti Sable. What I am is against lowering 19 of standards. And we have held as an Association 20 for many, many, many years for an animal to come 21 into a herd book they have to have four 22 generations. It's actually three and a half for a 23 doe and four and a half for a buck before they 24 come into a herd book. Four generations. And 25 that's what our Guidebook says, four generations ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 677 1 of meeting the breed standards. 2 The question I have is of these animals 3 that are listed on the left-hand side of all these 4 pages how many of them are the fourth generation 5 Sables? And if there aren't 100 of them, why 6 should we lower the standards? We may think we're 7 doing members a service; but in actuality we are 8 doing a disservice to breeding consistency. 9 MS. BERRY: When we looked at, 10 when we contacted AKC about how they did this kind 11 of thing and the Paint Horse Association and the 12 other associations that have registries we were 13 asking this kind of question, because this is a 14 different kind of thing. That's why I came up 15 with the wording in proposal number two. And if 16 you -- there is no point in talking about two if 17 you don't pass one. But if you pass one, you need 18 to pass two which allows for this, because what we 19 did when we set up how you develop a new breed, 20 you're right. That was the only method of doing 21 it was to have four generations of specifically 22 colored animals. But in the past looking at other 23 types of animals they can be removed in a body 24 from a herd book if you can show that there is a 25 long history of consistency. And certainly ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 678 1 different types of dogs have had this kind of 2 removal of a body of animals from a herd book. 3 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: We're 4 actually that's relevant as far as do you accept 5 this proposal in that it allows direct migration; 6 but we're actually not on changing and making the 7 exception yet. Right now we need to either accept 8 this proposal from the committee, modify it or 9 reject it. Daubert. 10 MR. DAUBERT: Well, the Saanen and 11 the Oberhasli come from very close regions in 12 Switzerland. Someplace along the line there was 13 some migration between those two. The Swiss 14 geneticists that have studied DNA of the Saanen 15 and the Oberhasli say that they are two separate 16 breeds. When they look at the Toggenburg it is a 17 combination of Saanen and Oberhasli. If you look 18 at these animals, you've get colored animals out 19 of Saanens, you get white spotted animals out of 20 Oberhasli. I'm against this because I think we're 21 creating another Toggenburg. This is if you look 22 at the color on them, they look like Toggenburgs. 23 And that's what has been, the Swiss have decided 24 that many, many years ago. 25 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Nixon next. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 679 1 MS. NIXON: Just a clarification: 2 In the event a Saanen breeder has a Sable colored 3 kid and does not want direct migration is there a 4 provision for that colored kid to be put into our 5 Experimental registry? 6 MS. BERRY: When you go into the 7 Experimental registry you have a percentage; and 8 basically you then decide where you're going to go 9 yourself with that animal, because what you have 10 is you have a percentage of what breed that animal 11 is. And so -- 12 MS. NIXON: Lelia, that is not the 13 question. This would be a purebred Experimental. 14 MS. BERRY: Yes. 15 MS. NIXON: And so would that 16 purebred animal become a Sable whether the owner 17 wanted it to or not, or have you addressed that 18 issue? 19 MS. BERRY: I haven't addressed 20 that issue. 21 MS. NIXON: Okay. 22 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Burks has not 23 spoken yet. 24 MR. BURKS: To me that would come 25 back to the point of how are you going to register ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 680 1 it, if you're going to register it at all. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Comments 3 have been made so far relevant to what you want to 4 do here. Hendrickson. 5 MS. HENDRICKSON: Well, a lot of 6 people have said that they didn't want to see the 7 Sables to get their herd book; and then we get 8 feedback from the Alpine people that they don't 9 want to have a breed that looks look Alpines. I'd 10 like them to consider that many of these mismarked 11 Saanens are in the Alpine herd book right now, 12 because people are using them to breed up to 13 American Alpine. Probably a high percentage of 14 first generation American Alpines are 25 percent 15 Saanens, and they're not going to disappear. And 16 if you're worrying about diluting the rest of the 17 herd books, I think a lot of the other breeds 18 could use some Saanen genetics. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Here, here. 21 Rowe. 22 DR. DEAN ROWE: Maybe I'm 23 overlooking it. But do you have -- have you -- 24 are you recommending a designation for the breed 25 in terms of the breed coding? And also is there ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 681 1 interaction with other committees relative to like 2 linear appraisal and so on in terms -- 3 MS. BERRY: Well, that really is 4 dependant on whether or not -- I mean, it's kind 5 of like the Nigerian situation. If you say we 6 want to do this, then of course the next step 7 would be the New Breeds Task Force to work out the 8 various situations with the other committees that 9 would be affected. That seemed premature to do 10 before we knew it was going to happen. 11 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I guess we 12 didn't get an answer on whether it will, how the 13 registration number would start. That was a 14 question you had as well. That hasn't been 15 addressed yet. Saum. 16 MS. SAUM: I had a question maybe 17 Joanie can answer. How many white kids are born 18 out of Sables? Is there a percentage like 19 genetically on the color? Can you -- 20 DR. DEAN ROWE: That is for a 21 Saanen breed or a geneticist. I can answer the 22 Toggenburg question. And the Oberhasli angle was 23 new for me. 24 (LAUGHTER.) 25 MS. SAUM: I guess -- ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 682 1 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: All right. 2 We need to address the group, Director Saum. 3 Address the group with the question. 4 MS. SAUM: My question is we've 5 allowed for the migration of Sables from the 6 Saanen herd book. The minute they are born they 7 can be a Sable if they're colored. They're the 8 same ancestry. They are the same animals; but if 9 you have two Sables that have a white goat, we say 10 "You're not good enough to be a Saanen." I just 11 it's a double standard. 12 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I take it 13 you don't like this proposal in the way that it is 14 created. 15 MS. SAUM: I didn't say that. I 16 was just asking the question. 17 MS. BERRY: I'm sorry. I didn't 18 hear the question. 19 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think she 20 is just stating correctly the way that it will 21 work, if kids are born from white mothers, they 22 become Sables immediately. If colored kids are 23 born -- if white kids are born from colored 24 mothers, Sable mothers, they are not Saanens 25 immediately. ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 683 1 MS. BERRY: That's right. 2 MR. DANIEL CONSIDINE: Right. But 3 that is the way it's drawn. 4 MS. SAUM: Why. 5 MS. BERRY: Because the colored 6 gene is in those white animals that you would 7 have. 8 MS. SAUM: It was already in them. 9 That is why they have Sables. 10 MS. BERRY: Well, yes. George. 11 MR. ALTHEIDE: Yes. Just a few 12 minutes ago you said "long-term consistency in 13 breeding." And I guess that was the reason I 14 asked how many of these animals were fourth 15 generation. Have they demonstrated that long-term 16 consistency in breeding? 17 MS. BERRY: If you'll look at the 18 statistics and in the Grade herd books, you know, 19 we have in here all the animals in our database 20 that we were able to identify. And as Donna 21 points out, many of these animals have been lost 22 because for a long time we didn't use the correct 23 percentages. So many animals went into the 24 Experimental herd book which we lost track of 25 because they were butchered or sold to commercial ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 684 1 dairies without papers and so forth. So there 2 wasn't any incentive for people to really track 3 that. 4 I think there is a lot of evidence from the 5 statistics that Donna has here and from the 6 information in the back with the purebred, 7 American, and Grade that there are a large number 8 of these animals. I was very surprised when I 9 started doing linear. In judging I have seen a 10 number of Sables; but I was surprised that I saw a 11 great many more when I started traveling 12 intensively and started seeing them in the 13 country. 14 DANIEL CONSIDINE: Dean. 15 MS. DEAN: I guess my concern is 16 sort of a -- I mean, I have talked to a couple of 17 people who have Saanens who have said that when 18 they get kids of color born and if there is a 19 Sable book, they are simply going to put "sire 20 unknown, dam unknown," because they do not want 21 animals carrying their herd name to be entered 22 into anything other than a Saanen herd book. So 23 I'm not sure. I mean, Saanens born of color are 24 going to end up other places anyway. So I'm not 25 sure how this addresses that or if it addresses ANNA RENKEN & ASSOCIATES 512/323-0626 685 1 that. 2 MS. BERRY: Well, one of the 3 things we did, as I mentioned, is that we had the 4 Saanen breeders, that is the official club for the 5 Saanens, do the survey, because that see