i 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE 3 TUESDAY MORNING SESSION 4 OCTOBER 18, 2005 5 Call to Order......................... 1 6 Invocation............................ 1 7 Roll Call of Directors................ 1 8 Welcome and Opening Remarks by 9 President Saum..................... 2 10 Review of the Agenda.................. 3 11 Reading of the Minutes of the 12 2004 Annual Meeting................ 3 13 Motion to suspend the reading 14 of the minutes.................. 3 15 Take Action on the District V 16 Election........................... 4 17 Motion to declare the election 18 results of District V void...... 4 19 Motion to amend the motion......... 8 20 Motion to call for the question 21 and Action on Motion............ 14 22 Action on the motion with the 23 amendment....................... 24 24 Executive Committee's Report.......... 24 25 Association Manager's Report.......... 27 ii 1 Performance Programs Coordinator's 2 Report............................. 30 3 Review of the Postal Ballots.......... 34 4 Motion to accept the election 5 results from District I and 6 Action on Motion................ 43 7 Motion to accept the election 8 results from District II and 9 Action on Motion................ 43 10 Motion to accept the election 11 results from District III...... 43 12 Action on Motion................... 44 13 Motion to accept the election 14 results from District IV and 15 Action on Motion................ 44 16 Motion to accept the election 17 results from District V......... 44 18 Action on Motion................... 45 19 Motion to accept the election 20 results from District VI and 21 Action on Motion................ 45 22 Motion to accept the election 23 results from District VII....... 45 24 Action on Motion................... 46 25 iii 1 Motion to accept the election 2 results from District VIII 3 and Action on Motion............ 46 4 Any Other Old Business................ 47 5 RECESS...................................... 47 6 Election of Officers.................. 48 7 TC Committee Report................... 72 8 Motion concerning the three strike 9 rule............................ 86 10 Action on Motion................... 102 11 Report of DNA Typing Committee........ 104 12 ADGA Research Foundation Report....... 126 13 NOON RECESS................................. 128 14 Hearing of the Complaint Against 15 Noah Goddard...................... 129 16 Motion to find Noah Goddard's 17 conduct detrimental to the 18 Association and Action on 19 Motion......................... 290 20 Motion to have the expulsion of 21 Noah Goddard................... 293 22 Action on Motion.................. 300 23 RECESS..................................... 303 24 25 iv 1 Motion to have a District V 2 special election as soon as 3 possible...................... 304 4 Action on Motion................. 307 5 Request for Membership by Wendel 6 Robert Wardell, Jr. .............. 307 7 Motion not to accept Wendel 8 Robert Wardell, Jr. for 9 membership.................... 307 10 Action on Motion................. 308 11 Motion to deny Wendel Robert 12 Wardell, Jr., registration 13 services and other services... 309 14 Action on Motion................. 310 15 Acceptance of Resolution from Hearing 16 Panel/Nickel/Einsendel/Harris..... 311 17 Motion not to accept the 18 resolution from the Hearing 19 Panel......................... 313 20 Action on Motion................. 317 21 Recommendation from Judges Committee 22 Regarding Complaint............... 320 23 Motion that Marshall Binkley's 24 ADGA judge's license be 25 revoked....................... 320 v 1 Action on Motion................. 321 2 Remarks Regarding Executive Committee 3 Recommendations................... 322 4 RECESS..................................... 329 5 WEDNESDAY MORNING SESSION 6 OCTOBER 19, 2005 7 Roll Call of Board of Directors...... 330 8 Preliminary Finance Committee 9 Report............................ 331 10 IM Committee Preliminary Report...... 348 11 RECESS..................................... 397 12 Report of Animal Meeting............. 398 13 Report of Advanced Judges Committee.. 411 14 Report of Artificial Insemination 15 Committee......................... 412 16 Report of Awards Committee........... 418 17 Motion concerning ADGA award 18 nominations.................... 424 19 Action on Motion.................. 425 20 Amended Motion.................... 428 21 Action on Amended Motion.......... 429 22 Report of Breed Standards Committee.. 429 23 Motion to remove the word 24 "approximate".................. 432 25 Action on Motion.................. 436 vi 1 Motion for Board action on No. 2.. 443 2 Action on Motion.................. 446 3 Motion to refer Nos. 3 through 10 4 back to the Breed Standards 5 Committee and Action on 6 Motion......................... 454 7 Report of the Constitution and Bylaws 8 Committee......................... 468 9 Report of Government and 10 International Liaison Committee... 470 11 NOON RECESS................................ 485 12 Report of the History Committee...... 485 13 Report of National Show Long-Range 14 Goals and Policies Committee...... 491 15 Motion to accept the higher level 16 and the prices be up to that 17 level.......................... 523 18 Action on Motion.................. 525 19 Report of the Type Committee......... 526 20 Motion to allow the Type 21 Committee $500 to get bids for 22 the photos..................... 530 23 Action on Motion.................. 538 24 RECESS..................................... 543 25 Report of Judges Committee........... 544 vii 1 Motion to add wording to the 2 Guidebook concerning complaint 3 hearings....................... 544 4 Action on Motion.................. 550 5 Report of Scholarships Committee..... 555 6 Report of Membership Committee....... 556 7 Motion to go through the 8 Guidebook and change all the 9 "junior" to "youth" members.... 556 10 Action on Motion.................. 557 11 Motion to create a Subcommittee 12 to deal with herd name 13 problems....................... 557 14 Action on Motion.................. 558 15 Motion to resume selling 16 membership directory to non- 17 members........................ 558 18 Action on Motion.................. 562 19 Motion to sell directory to non- 20 members for $30................ 562 21 Action on Motion.................. 563 22 Motion to verify that the 23 information on the renewal 24 form is correct and Action on 25 Motion......................... 564 viii 1 Motion that only regular members 2 age 18 and over are eligible 3 to vote........................ 564 4 Action on Motion.................. 573 5 Motion that you must live in your 6 District for six months to be 7 eligible to vote............... 573 8 Action on Motion.................. 574 9 Motion concerning the mailing 10 address for members............ 574 11 Action on Motion.................. 575 12 Motion concerning authorized 13 signatures..................... 575 14 Action on Motion.................. 581 15 Motion on one vote one person..... 581 16 Motion to refer this back to 17 Committee and Action on 18 Motion......................... 584 19 Motion that the phone number 20 must match the address......... 585 21 Action on Motion.................. 586 22 Report of National Show.............. 590 23 Report of National Show Colorama 24 Committee......................... 598 25 ix 1 Report of Production Testing 2 Committee......................... 603 3 Motion to renew the contract 4 for one year with Gene 5 Dirshowitz (?)................. 605 6 Action on Motion.................. 606 7 Motion to renew the quality 8 assurance contract with the 9 DHIA........................... 606 10 Action on Motion.................. 607 11 Motion for a change in the ADGA 12 Guidebook that records are 13 made under test conditions..... 607 14 Action on Motion.................. 608 15 Motion concerning the 16 participating herds can be 17 used in ADGA's DHIR programs... 609 18 Action on Motion.................. 610 19 Motion to approve the brochure 20 developed by the performance 21 program coordinator............ 611 22 Action on Motion.................. 613 23 Motion that the EC approve the 24 brochure and Action on Motion.. 617 25 Report of Registration Committee..... 618 x 1 Motion to remove the word 2 "Dairy" from the Certificate 3 of Identification program...... 619 4 Action on Motion.................. 620 5 Motion to expand the Certificate 6 of Identification program to 7 include bucks, does and 8 Wethers........................ 625 9 Action on Motion.................. 627 10 Motion to add a new rule to the 11 Rules and Regulations 12 concerning rebreeding.......... 627 13 Action on Motion.................. 630 14 Motion that he wording be changed 15 to say Rules 2 through 11...... 630 16 Action on Motion.................. 631 17 Motion to remove Rule K.6. in 18 the Artificial Insemination 19 Section and Action on Motion... 631 20 Motion to change the wording in 21 G.5., Page 36.................. 632 22 Action on Motion.................. 635 23 RECESS..................................... 636 24 Report of Sire Development 25 Committee......................... 637 xi 1 Motion concerning the ADGA 2 Genetic Awards Program......... 637 3 Action on Motion.................. 639 4 Motion that ADGA Genetics Awards 5 Program appear in the Appendix 6 of the Guidebook............... 639 7 Action on Motion.................. 641 8 Motion by the Sire Development 9 Committee to change certain 10 wording in the ADGA Guidebook.. 641 11 Action on Motion.................. 642 12 Report of the Shows Committee........ 643 13 Motion concerning Breed Clubs..... 643 14 Action on Motion.................. 644 15 Motion to change the wording 16 concerning the number of dry 17 milkers and senior does........ 645 18 Action on Motion.................. 647 19 Motion concerning the grand 20 champion is entitled to GCH 21 designation and Action on 22 Motion......................... 647 23 Motion concerning permanent 24 champion status and Action on 25 Motion......................... 648 xii 1 Motion to add Rule No. 14 to 2 Page 70........................ 648 3 Action on Motion.................. 653 4 National Show Long-Range Goals and 5 Policies Committee Report......... 658 6 Motion that the Linear Appraisal 7 Long-Range Planning Committee 8 have a definition in the 9 Guidebook...................... 659 10 Action on Motion.................. 660 11 Motion to adopt a procedure to 12 assign final scores exceeding 13 the number 93.................. 660 14 Action on Motion.................. 675 15 RECESS..................................... 678 16 THURSDAY MORNING SESSION 17 OCTOBER 20, 2005 18 Roll Call of Board of Directors...... 679 19 Report of Publicity/Promotional/ 20 Educational Materials Committee... 680 21 Motion to let the members decide 22 on the logo.................... 682 23 Action on Motion.................. 687 24 25 xiii 1 Motion to refer previous motion 2 to Committee................... 687 3 Action on Motion.................. 688 4 Motion to discontinue the Show 5 Trading Card Project and 6 Action on Motion............... 688 7 Report of Products Committee......... 689 8 Motion for approval of the budget 9 for the ADGA booth at the 10 2006 World Dairy Expo.......... 694 11 Action on Motion.................. 695 12 Report of Youth Activities 13 Committee......................... 695 14 Motion to authorize the National 15 Show Youth Committee to pay 16 $150 for judges................ 698 17 Action on Motion.................. 699 18 Motion to provide funds for the 19 alternate youth rep to attend 20 the National Show.............. 705 21 Action on Motion.................. 707 22 Motion to approve the concept of 23 a new youth form and it be 24 reviewed by the attorney....... 707 25 Action on Motion.................. 708 xiv 1 Report of Spotlight Sale Committee... 711 2 Report of Trade and Arbitration 3 Committee......................... 719 4 Motion that the complaint form 5 must be signed by the 6 complainant and Action on 7 Motion......................... 720 8 Report of Youth 4-H/FFA Project 9 Committee......................... 721 10 Motion to approve the 11 discontinuance of the issuing 12 of the pins.................... 725 13 Motion withdrawn.................. 731 14 Motion that the Board direct the 15 Executive Committee to look 16 into the issue of the pins..... 732 17 Action on Motion.................. 734 18 Motion to approve the $100 and 19 the Committee make no 20 further awards................. 736 21 Action on Motion.................. 737 22 RECESS..................................... 737 23 Report of Linear Appraisal 24 Committee......................... 738 25 xv 1 Motion to add a miscellaneous 2 code concerning height and 3 Action on Motion............... 747 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 1 TUESDAY SESSION - OCTOBER 18, 2005 2 3 (The meeting of the Board of Directors 4 of the American Dairy Goat Association, meeting at 5 the Hilton Airport Hotel, Kansas City, Missouri, 6 was called to order at 8:00 o'clock a.m., with 7 President Robin Saum, presiding.) 8 CALL TO ORDER 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: We will go ahead and 10 call the meeting to order. Does everybody have an 11 agenda that has been printed? Everyone has got 12 one. 13 We will have the Invocation by Bob 14 Cassette. 15 INVOCATION 16 DIRECTOR CASSETTE: Let us pray. 17 Our Heavenly Father, creator of the 18 universe, grant us wisdom as we deliberate the 19 issues before us and may our actions taken be done 20 in brotherly love. Amen. 21 ROLL CALL OF DIRECTORS 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: We will go down the 23 roll call of directors. 24 District 1, Jennifer Mellett - here; Bob 25 Cassette - here; Charlotte Sankey - here; Helen 7 1 Snyder - here; Pete Snyder - here; Allen Bitter- 2 here; Shari Reyna - here; Bonnie Kempe - here; Cam 3 Faircloth - here; Linda Campbell - here; Dan 4 Considine - here; Greg Morris - here; Tom Rucker- 5 here; Robin Saum - here; Patti Dean - here; 6 Director-Elect Noah Goddard - here; Bruce Nickel- 7 here; Jamie Burks - here; Marsha Gustafson - here; 8 Caroline Lawson - here; Vivian Proctor - here; 9 Laurie Petersen - here; Chris Strickland - here; 10 Pat Hendrickson - here; Rex Backus - here; Joan 11 Rowe - here. 12 The Directors Emeriti are Lelia Berry- 13 here; Sally Callahan - here; Bob Cassette - here; 14 Harvey Considine - here; Sheila Nixon - here. 15 Then we have our staff present. We have 16 Shirley McKenzie, the Association's Manager, and 17 Lisa Shepard that is the Programs Manager. We 18 have the computer programmer there, Bryan Lenihan, 19 in the back. We have George Altheide. 20 WELCOME AND OPENING REMARKS BY PRESIDENT SAUM 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Also, I want to 22 recognize our court reporter. He is John Bowen. 23 He is new to us, so please be sure and use the 24 microphone and you will have to be recognized, and 25 if he asks us to stop, we will stop for changing 8 1 of the tape and things like that. 2 Just a couple of little things of 3 business. I do want to welcome the new directors. 4 We have six directors that are returning to us or 5 are new to the Board, and then we have five 6 directors that are leaving. They are Donna 7 Anderson, Kristi Bozzo-Baldenegro, Dave Daubert, 8 Carl Page and Annette Maze. I thank them for 9 everything they have done for us over the last 10 three years. 11 Some housekeeping, cell phones, if you 12 have a cell phone in the room, please turn it to 13 vibrate. I think we would all appreciate that. 14 REVIEW OF THE AGENDA 15 The review of the agenda, nothing has 16 changed since this was printed last night. 17 Hopefully, we will follow the order there. I see 18 the cell phones being turned off everywhere. 19 READING OF THE MINUTES OF THE 2004 ANNUAL MEETING 20 The items of agenda will be the reading 21 of the Minutes of the meeting of the 2004 Annual 22 Meeting. 23 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I move that we suspend 24 with the reading of the minutes. 25 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: I second it. 9 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: It has been moved by 2 Rucker, seconded by Hendrickson, that we dispense 3 with the reading of the minutes. Is there any 4 discussion? All those in favor will say "aye"; 5 those opposed "no". Any abstentions? The motion 6 passed. 7 TAKE ACTION ON THE DISTRICT V ELECTION 8 All right. We will go to Item 7, to 9 take action on the District V Election. We have 10 had a chance to review the materials, I believe, 11 this morning. There was another piece of paper 12 that was distributed to you with the Liberty Press 13 on the top of it. 14 That came last week and they did come 15 out with a statement from the printer that we do 16 business with. He actually went to the CPA's 17 office and reviewed the ballots. That is how that 18 came about. Any questions? 19 Strickland. 20 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I move that we 21 declare the election results of District V void 22 and we proceed as per our Constitution to filling 23 the vacancy. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is there a second to 25 that motion? 10 1 DIRECTOR REYNA: I second it. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Considine. 3 DIRECTOR CONSIDINE: I think that we 4 need an explanation in the case of Director 5 Goddard, who is serving from the prior election. 6 We need to be sure whether it is him, and there is 7 no election, or whether he should leave. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Strickland. 9 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I was referring to 10 Section 2 of the Guideline book that states, "The 11 term Director, as used in this Constitution or the 12 Bylaws made pursuant to this Constitution, shall 13 be a person who has been elected by the membership 14 of a Directorial district." 15 This election, I would say no Director 16 has been elected because there was not a ballot 17 election, and no Directors be seated. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Anyone else? 19 DIRECTOR CONSIDINE: Well, yes, I would 20 like to comment on whether that is proper as it 21 should be. I think that we might want to have 22 some advice on the issue. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: John Ruth, he is the 24 attorney that we have used from Missouri, he can 25 address that the Bylaw doesn't cover it and the 11 1 laws of Missouri do not cover the not-for-profit 2 status. 3 MR. RUTH: Good morning. As Robin 4 indicated, my name is John Ruth. I am a lawyer 5 from Jefferson City, Missouri. I have been asked 6 to look into the situation regarding the seating 7 of Directors. 8 You will have to remember that you are 9 governed by your Constitution, your Bylaws, and 10 then the way the statutes of Missouri are written, 11 Chapter 355. You are governed by those to the 12 extent that your Bylaws and Constitution do not 13 address an issue that may be covered in those 14 statutes. 15 So, it is my opinion that pursuant to 16 Statutory Section 355.331.4, Mr. Goddard, as a 17 serving Director, would be entitled to retain his 18 seat until such time as his successor has been 19 elected and qualified to take his position. 20 It is my understanding that the other 21 position is a new position and that it will be 22 vacant, and you would be governed by Article VII, 23 Section 2, of the Constitution that provides, 24 "Vacancies on the Board of Directors shall be 25 filled for the unexpired term of the vacancy at 12 1 the next regular election." 2 That seat will not be filled until the 3 next election site. The motion, as I understood 4 it, is in conflict with that provision. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Nixon. 6 DIRECTOR NIXON: Do you have copies of 7 that Chapter 355 for us to see? If not, could you 8 read us the exact language of the statement that 9 you feel is in conflict with the Constitution? 10 When several of us looked at that on the Internet, 11 our feeling was that that was a conditional 12 statement rather than an absolute statement as far 13 as maintaining the seat until the successor was 14 elected. 15 MR. RUTH: In reviewing your 16 Constitution and Bylaws, I don't see anything 17 directly discussing the situation. That is why I 18 needed to turn to the statutes, and that section 19 reads, "Despite the expiration of the Director's 20 term, the Director continues to serve until the 21 Director's successor is elected, designated or 22 appointed, or qualified, or until there is 23 decrease in the number of Directors." 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Hendrickson. 25 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: That doesn't 13 1 appear to cover a case where there might be a 2 question about that election, and that is one of 3 the things that I think is bothering some of us, 4 that perhaps this person would have been replaced 5 by another individual if the ballot was not in 6 question. 7 MR. RUTH: In my opinion, that doesn't 8 make any difference. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Altheide. 10 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Yes, the heading of 11 this section included the qualifier generally in 12 terms of Directors generally. 13 MR. RUTH: The title of the statute in 14 Missouri is no means to the exception of the 15 statute. Just for your information, I didn't wake 16 up this morning and read this. I have spent 17 several times addressing the issue trying to come 18 up with what I believe to be the correct answer to 19 this situation. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bitter. 21 DIRECTOR BITTER: I move to amend the 22 present motion so we are in compliance with the 23 Missouri not-for-profit law. 24 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I second it. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: It has been seconded by 14 1 Campbell. Is there any discussion on the 2 amendment? 3 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: It is pretty 4 clear to me, but that is not what the motion said. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bitter's motion stated, 6 the motion be amended until we are in compliance 7 with the not-for-profit statute in Missouri. 8 Was that the intent of your motion? 9 DIRECTOR BITTER: That would be very 10 clear. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is that the intent of 12 the seconder? 13 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Yes. 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: Does anybody have any 15 comments on that? 16 Lawson. 17 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I think the only thing 18 you need to do is to just clarify that statute; is 19 that correct? 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Yes. Okay. Any 21 discussion on this motion? So, we are voting on 22 the amended motion made by Bitter and seconded by 23 Campbell. 24 Do you want to restate it, Allen? 25 DIRECTOR BITTER: No. 15 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: No. The amendment is 2 to the motion made that Director Goddard would 3 remain in his seat until the next general 4 election. 5 Pete. 6 DIRECTOR PETE SNYDER: No, the motion is 7 that we amend the Strickland motion so that we are 8 in compliance with the not-for-profit laws in the 9 State of Missouri, which was clarified by 10 Considine, would allow Director Goddard to serve 11 until his successor is decided or he succeeds 12 himself at the next regular election. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. 14 DIRECTOR BURKS: Would that be the next 15 regular election or the next special election for 16 District V? 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: The Constitution states 18 the next general election. That is the regular 19 election. 20 Cam. 21 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: What is the 22 Missouri law function? 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bonnie Kempe, go ahead. 24 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I think that Chris says 25 the election of District V will be void and 16 1 proceed as per our Constitution. So, Allen wants 2 to change that to the election in District V be 3 void and he remain in his seat until the next 4 general election. 5 Does that make more sense, in accordance 6 with the Missouri statutes? 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Korhonen. 8 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Does the Missouri 9 statute specify a different potential election 10 time? 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Ruth. 12 MR. RUTH: The Board can have a special 13 Board general election. 14 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: A special would be 15 allowable? 16 MR. RUTH: Yes. There are two issues. 17 The vacancy per your Constitution says the next 18 regular election. Okay. As to the other 19 position, the position of Mr. Goddard, that 20 position would be filled at either a special or a 21 general election. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Let's get to the 23 amendment first, and then we will get back to the 24 original motion. Is everybody ready to vote on 25 the amendment? 17 1 Bryan. 2 DIRECTOR BRYAN: I still have a question 3 about the special election. Since the ADGA 4 Guidebook did not specifically address a 5 fraudulent election, would Missouri law supersede 6 the statute? 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Ruth. 8 MR. RUTH: I see no distinction made as 9 to the reason why the Director is not duly elected 10 and qualified to sit for whatever reason. It is 11 not just procedure for this reason and this 12 procedure for this reason. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Go ahead, Bryan. 14 DIRECTOR BRYAN: To clarify your point, 15 the advent of that would void rules in this case? 16 MR. RUTH: As to the vacancy, vacant 17 position that has never been filled. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Altheide. 19 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Could we separate 20 the question and deal with the first part of it, 21 whether or not we uphold the election, and if the 22 election is not upheld, then Mr. Goddard would 23 remain on the Board, and then deal with when we 24 hold an election as a separate issue? 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: What we need to do 18 1 right now is vote on the amendment to the 2 Strickland motion. We do have a second. Do we 3 have any further discussion on the amendment? 4 Gustafson. 5 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: I think that this 6 is part of the issue. I did have a letter -- 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: We are talking about 8 the amendment to this motion. We will get to 9 that. I will give you an opportunity for that. 10 This is the amendment to the motion that was made 11 by Bitter. Is everybody clear on what we are 12 voting for? 13 Okay, Allen, do you want to restate the 14 motion? 15 DIRECTOR BITTER: Basically, 16 Strickland's motion was to void the District V 17 election. Dan Considine basically asked for legal 18 advice. The legal advice we received was that our 19 Constitution doesn't cover it, that we need to 20 have the Missouri not-for-profit law come into 21 effect. 22 That not-for-profit law, as Mr. Ruth 23 stated in the last few minutes, is that the person 24 that was previously duly elected can continue to 25 serve in that capacity until the next election, 19 1 which would be in 2006. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: I think there is a lot 3 of confusion over the amendment to the motion and 4 the motion. Do you want to withdraw all of your 5 motions and start with a nice clean one? 6 Snyder. 7 DIRECTOR PETE SNYDER: I call for the 8 question, and let's vote on it. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: The question has been 10 called for by Pete Snyder. All those in favor 11 will say "aye"; all those opposed. Are there any 12 abstentions? Directors Goddard, Nickel and 13 Gustafson. Any other questions? The amendment to 14 the motion passed. 15 We are now back to the original motion, 16 as amended. Is there any discussion on that? 17 Gustafson. 18 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: The reason for my 19 abstention and just consider that election be 20 called in 2006 rather than a special election, and 21 in an attempt to serve the membership, I did send 22 out a letter to District V members, and in that I 23 asked a question if another election is held, 24 should it be as soon as possible or wait until the 25 2006 election is held? 20 1 Of those responding, the answer to this 2 question, 25 said as soon as possible. Only 6 3 said to be done in 2006. I think that is a pretty 4 clear message from District V. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you, Marsha. 6 Goddard. 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I would like to deal 8 with it. I yield the floor to Mr. Tofle. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: This is Mr. Tofle and 10 he is representing Mr. Goddard and Mr. Nickel. 11 MR. MARVIN TOFLE: Thank you. I would 12 like to make a comment on behalf of Mr. Goddard 13 and Mr. Nickel, that basically it only involves 14 them at this time. My understanding is that the 15 CPA certified the election, if I understand it, 16 and that at a later time he was asked to write a 17 report about any irregularities. 18 I think the election has been certified 19 by the CPA. I don't think this is the proper 20 procedure at this point to change that. I noticed 21 that at a later time he was asked to write a 22 report, and he did write a report, and I notice 23 that he prepared a chart which you have all got 24 the chart. 25 This is why this is so very important, 21 1 that I note that he certified the election, and 2 that somebody else asked him to concede something 3 that was in the ballots that he didn't see. And 4 in his chart, the way I understood it, he has 5 accepted some of the ballots and he has rejected 6 some of the ballots. 7 So, if someone is saying that some of 8 the white ballots are not right, that certainly is 9 not what the CPA found. The CPA accepted some of 10 the so-called subset envelopes with a July 12th 11 date and he rejected other envelopes that had 12 different dates. 13 I think if you read what the CPA did, 14 the chart is totally inconsistent with any theory 15 that there are bright white ballots that were 16 somehow found to be irregular. I don't think that 17 can be an issue at this point, and that is not 18 what the CPA found. 19 In addition, I think that there just has 20 to be that Robert's Rules of Order complete the 21 issue here. One of the major issues I think is 22 that there still, even if there had been an 23 irregularity, there still has to be enough votes 24 that will change the outcome of the election. 25 I can't see anywhere where anybody has 22 1 documented that there is nearly enough votes that 2 would change this election in any way. I noticed 3 with respect to what we call the duplicate 4 ballots, that at least one or two people indicated 5 that they did vote twice. 6 I think it was the Chambers, and they 7 said something in their comments like, "As usual, 8 we got two ballots", which I think may indicate 9 that people that have a joint membership, or some 10 of those people that had a joint membership, such 11 as the Chambers, got two ballots. 12 As usual, according to them, they voted 13 two votes. So there is something going on that 14 the Board would just say this is fraudulent or 15 this is being an irregularity, there are other 16 things here, and all of those votes, I think, you 17 can't say that some are fraudulent. 18 I will keep my comments brief. That is 19 all I wanted to say. But again I think you would 20 have to prove there were enough votes to change 21 the outcome here in order to make it effective. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: Rucker. 23 DIRECTOR RUCKER: If we look back at the 24 original CPA letter, dated August 8th, on the 25 agreed-upon procedures, the second to the last 23 1 paragraph does mention, "I was not engaged to and 2 did not conduct an examination of the executive, 3 that is, the expression of an opinion on the 4 decision of the election tabulation procedures and 5 conduct and execution of the process to elect 6 district representatives to the Board of Directors 7 of ADGA. Accordingly, I do not express such an 8 opinion. Had I performed any such procedures, 9 other matters might have come to my attention that 10 would have been reported to you." 11 So, I think there was sufficient 12 statement in the original letter to indicate there 13 was concern that he was not asked to comment on at 14 that time. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do we have any further 16 comments? 17 Gustafson. 18 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: It is my 19 understanding that there was 171 letters sent out 20 to people, whether or not they have or have not 21 voted. I certainly didn't hear any response on 22 the use of that. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Shirley, do you have 24 that? 25 I don't have the answer to that. She is 24 1 looking it up. 2 Strickland. 3 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: The comments on 4 the copy of the letter we received from the CPA 5 states, "I am sorry about this. I just realized 6 that I got two ballots." Let me say she didn't 7 remember. So I don't think this is at all 8 involved. I think that the ballots were in a 9 different membership. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Morris. 11 DIRECTOR MORRIS: My question is to 12 Marsha on the letter she sent out to the members 13 in District V. How many responded to the letters 14 she sent out? 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: Gustafson. 16 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: For financial 17 reasons, I only mailed a couple, but I sent the 18 letter out by e-mail and everybody got it on the 19 e-mail address. I didn't bring it with me. I do 20 have a list at home of all that came back. 21 I can tell you the ones, because I have 22 marked them off, if you would like a count of 23 those that were received. Also, in that letter 24 for distribution, and let me make sure it is in 25 this stack, the last paragraph of that letter 25 1 read, "In addition, I am requesting your help in 2 distributing the letters to District V members 3 that you know who is not a member of one of the 4 District V e-mail lists. I will be attempting to 5 distribute the letter to District V members." 6 I don't know how many. If you want a 7 number of e-mails that I sent out, I can get that 8 from my room. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Shirley, do you have 10 the answer to that question on the total? 11 OFFICE MANAGER McKENZIE: The answer to 12 your question is 24. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Goddard is next. 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Mr. Tofle is right, 15 that he made an error. Sam and Pam Williams were 16 the people who voted, acknowledged they received 17 two ballots, and both voted those two ballots, and 18 they are going to say that. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Rucker. 20 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Certainly, I 21 appreciate Marsha's efforts to represent the 22 members in District V and their desire to have a 23 special election. We don't have in our 24 Constitution for a special election. We need to 25 stick with the Constitution and go with the 26 1 general election. 2 I understand that is the desire, but it 3 has to be taken care of and we have to follow the 4 Constitution. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell. 6 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: With regard to the 7 question, and further supplementation, the 8 Constitution allows for Board action on 9 irregularities. That will depend on any time 10 until the Director is elected, which the election 11 would be final. 12 We have had other occasions in our 13 history, at least one that I recall, where a 14 notice of irregularity was filed the morning 15 before the Board was seated. So, I mean that 16 would be in reference to Article II, Section (c), 17 where it states, "Upon notification of an 18 irregularity in a Director's election, the 19 election will not be final until the Board of 20 Directors has taken action on the irregularity." 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Altheide. 22 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: I would like to ask 23 Shirley how many responses of the 151 that were 24 sent out were received back. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: She received 24 back. 27 1 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: She received 24 back 2 out of 151? 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: She doesn't have it 4 with her, the total. 5 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: There were 24 that 6 responded, that they did not vote. Can you 7 estimate an approximate percentage of the 151 that 8 responded? Did you receive 151 responses? 9 OFFICE MANAGER McKENZIE: I would say 10 there were probably only 100 who responded. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you, Shirley. 12 Bitter. 13 DIRECTOR BITTER: In response to one of 14 the statements made by Attorney Tofle and 15 clarified a few minutes ago by Director Goddard, I 16 believe those parties in question voted twice 17 because they had two memberships. Therefore, we 18 would expect them to vote twice. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Nickel. 20 DIRECTOR NICKEL: With only 24 responses 21 that didn't vote and 16 duplicate ballots, that 22 comes up to 42, and the difference was 55 between 23 myself and Michael Hartfeld. According to 24 Robert's Rules, that is not significant enough to 25 overturn the election. 28 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Altheide. 2 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: What was the total 3 number of questionable ballots? I believe there 4 was 56 that were questionable ballots that were 5 counted according to the CPA in his report. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: 71 is in that report. 7 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: That is enough to 8 overturn the election; is that correct? 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Yes. 10 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Thank you. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do we have any more 12 discussion on this motion? Do you feel you have 13 enough information to vote? 14 Chris, will you state your motion with 15 the amendment. 16 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: The motion was to 17 declare the results of the election void and to 18 proceed with the seating of Director Goddard, 19 pursuant to Missouri statutes in District V, and 20 that the additional vacancy would be filled at the 21 next general election. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. That is 23 what we are voting on. All those in favor will 24 signify by saying "aye"; all those opposed. I 25 have a "no" from Backus, Bryan, Goddard. Any 29 1 abstentions? Altheide and Director-Elect Nickel. 2 The motion passed. So Director Goddard is, 3 therefore, seated until the next general election. 4 Are we ready to move on? 5 DIRECTOR BURKS: You need to ask Mr. 6 Nickel to leave. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you, Jamie. You 8 will have to move back to the other seating. 9 Thank you. 10 EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE'S REPORT 11 I think everybody should have received 12 that by e-mail a couple of weeks ago. I am not 13 going to read it into the minutes for you. I will 14 be happy to supply it to the court reporter so it 15 can be in the addendum of the minutes of the 16 meeting. 17 Does anybody have any questions about 18 it? Is there anything they would like to ask? I 19 am referring to the Executive Committee Summary of 20 Action. 21 Korhonen. 22 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Continuing with the 23 issue with Mr. Nickel, we have passed out some 24 material that is confidential that has been issued 25 to the Directors, and I think he should return 30 1 that. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Which material? Help 3 me with the list. I don't think we have sent 4 anything confidential yet. Is there something 5 specific that I may be missing something? 6 Altheide. 7 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: I think the 8 Committee Reports are available on the Web, so 9 that wouldn't be considered confidential. The 10 question, I guess, would be is the CPA's report on 11 the election returns considered confidential? 12 I know you said the CPA report could be 13 distributed, but the copy of the election stubs 14 maybe those that voted twice would not be 15 presented due to being confidential. That is just 16 for clarification. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Lawson. 18 DIRECTOR LAWSON: What about the postal 19 ballots? 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: I think I heard the 21 word Altheide made that perhaps duplicate ballots 22 that have the signatures on them, and that the 23 letter that was with them, because the people 24 indicated how they actually voted. 25 We should not release that information. 31 1 I don't think that was the intent. I believe Mr. 2 Nickel has left the room. 3 Mr. Tofle, would you like to ask him to 4 return those materials? 5 MR. TOFLE: I will be happy to. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: The election materials, 7 is that the stuff? 8 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Thank you. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: I will ask if you have 10 any questions on the Executive Committee Summary 11 of Action for the year? 12 Lawson. 13 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I am sorry. Since I 14 am not familiar with the notebook, can you tell me 15 where in the notebook we might find the Executive 16 Committee Summary? 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: I actually e-mailed 18 that to you. If you didn't print it off, it is 19 not in there. If you need a copy, we can provide 20 that for you. 21 Do you need a copy? How many copies do 22 we need? We will have a show of hands and we will 23 get those copied. We need nine copies of the 24 Executive Committee Summary of Action. Why don't 25 you make ten, Shirley. Let's go with ten. That 32 1 will give us an extra one is we need it. 2 I don't hear any comment on that, so if 3 you want, we will go ahead and have the 4 Association Manager's report by Shirley. You 5 should have that in your packet under your door 6 the other morning. 7 ASSOCIATION MANAGER'S REPORT 8 ASSOCIATION MANAGER McKENZIE: Good 9 morning. Have all of you received a copy of my 10 report? You have to speak directly into these 11 mikes. There are a lot of items that are covered 12 in my report, and there were a lot of statistics 13 that were provided. Was there any question that 14 anyone had or any thing I didn't cover well 15 enough? 16 I will call on Strickland. 17 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I noticed in the 18 EC Summaries, you said they discussed with Shirley 19 about the errors, based on the number of errors 20 for the members. I was wondering in your report, 21 is there anything that has been put in place so we 22 can see what kind of errors are being made and how 23 we can address that? 24 I do notice there in the report that you 25 say your employees received to the best of their 33 1 knowledge. I was just wondering where we are 2 currently with errors and returns. I know that at 3 times it has been phenomenal and we have had 4 errors. 5 ASSOCIATION MANAGER McKENZIE: In 6 regards to the report that we were hoping to have 7 in place so we could use for members, we do not 8 have that completed this year. It needs some more 9 definitions. 10 There are certain records and we are 11 going through a computer conversion. There are 12 also errors that the staff would catch before it 13 ever left the office, and others that could 14 possibly have gotten through. That is what we are 15 working on trying to change the system right now. 16 We hope we have that done in the next month or 17 two. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Strickland. 19 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I did notice you 20 were talking about that in the proofreading 21 system, it isn't a person that actually did the 22 work that proofreads that. I think that is 23 commendable. Working in an area like that, it is 24 difficult to proof your own material. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bitter. 34 1 DIRECTOR BITTER: On the last page of 2 your report, you refer to the NPLC meeting, and 3 the last item there is, the beginning refers to 4 DNA testing property rights. Was a consensus 5 reached, or who wrote the DNA testing results? I 6 assumed this was covered in some sort of a seminar 7 at the NPLC meeting. 8 ASSOCIATION MANAGER McKENZIE: Right. 9 It may be that Lisa will respond to that more in 10 her report. It covered some extensive discussion 11 of that when we were at the meeting. That was a 12 concern of several. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Lawson. 14 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I think that cross 15 training is an excellent idea, and I would also 16 like to suggest that if you don't have it in 17 place, perhaps having a regular staff meeting once 18 a month where you can all sit down and discuss 19 what you have been doing and how you can improve 20 what you have been doing. 21 ASSOCIATION MANAGER McKENZIE: Thank 22 you. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you, Shirley. 24 Lisa, do you want to come up and do your 25 report? You can address Allen's question. 35 1 Shirley has the list of members for 2005. If 2 anybody has someone ask for the list, we would 3 like to know. 4 DIRECTOR BITTER: Before you let Shirley 5 go, I would like to offer a round of applause for 6 an excellent year's profit and on a very timely 7 basis coming out of the ADGA office. (Applause) 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Someone asked us if the 9 deceased members will be in the minutes, and they 10 will be. I will get a copy of them. 11 Rowe. 12 DIRECTOR ROWE: I think it was pointed 13 out on the list are all the award winners, and 14 there was one who helped design the testing 15 system, so I thought it was worth mentioning that. 16 PERFORMANCE PROGRAMS COORDINATOR'S REPORT 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Lisa Shepard. 18 MS. SHEPARD: Good morning. First of 19 all, I have questions, and then I will go to the 20 regular programs event report. There was a panel 21 discussion in the DNA, and because of the 22 photographs and the commercial labs who are now 23 offering DNA services through a variety of 24 species, there are questions that are not results 25 yet but need to be addressed and moved forward as 36 1 to who owns those results and those samples. 2 The recommendation from most of the 3 registries is that that information is part of the 4 registry, but we do need to make that clear when 5 we do the DNA testing. 6 Additionally, there will be some 7 information brought to you later in the report 8 from Dr. Bowen, who is talking about a possibility 9 of looking at other laboratories and having them 10 on a formal contract basis. 11 In that are discussions in the contract 12 and the proposal as to who owns this sample once 13 it has been reported on, and there is the issue of 14 the results as well as the material. I think that 15 we will hear more about that in that particular 16 report. 17 Does that help? The reporting programs, 18 the report before you and just a few highlights, I 19 think the chair was very satisfied in terms of not 20 only did we not lose any ground, we gained ground. 21 In terms of results even on the herd, although 22 additional programming has allowed us to identify 23 multiple members under one herd code so we can 24 actually see what numbers of members are 25 benefitting from our services in terms of 37 1 participating in that program. 2 So the numbers are higher, because we 3 can identify all the people in that herd code, and 4 we can put that into the system. That is what you 5 are getting as part of that monthly report. 6 Additionally, with your appraisal, 7 although we stayed fairly even on the numbers of 8 the herd, we appraised additional animals. So 9 that was quite successful in that respect, that 10 the program is quite healthy and growing. We 11 expect to see additional interest in the next 12 year. 13 As I mentioned, you will be receiving a 14 proposal from the DNA Committee later this 15 morning. In your Linear Appraisal, also we 16 started looking at our first miniature breed, 17 Nigerian, and started collecting that data, and 18 that the Nigerian is collecting that data. 19 There are two other things I need to 20 bring to your attention. In evaluations, as I 21 mentioned just to the Programs Committee last 22 night, we have the potential to do a collaborative 23 study with USC and two universities in Mexico on 24 our data. 25 This was received, and that is our hope 38 1 to bring up a more extensive proposal to the Board 2 and the Executive Committee about that, which was 3 commenced for the year here and approved, and it 4 takes about a year's worth of work to research and 5 study it. 6 The other item, that is the financial 7 information on the appraisal trip, and one thing 8 to note, it does show a little bit of what -- not 9 a little bit -- a lot of training, although we do 10 expect to have that budget next year because we 11 have made some changes in terms of our auto 12 insurance for our appraisers and kind of made that 13 consistent because that coverage that comes 14 through our credit card company, so we have gained 15 back the additional expense. 16 We have also come up with some ways to 17 make our trips a little bit easier in terms of 18 planning, looking into something like a corporate 19 account with auto, and that kind of thing. 20 Are there any questions? 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Petersen. 22 DIRECTOR PETERSEN: I have a question. 23 Just on the DHRI report, it is District VI and not 24 District VII. It is District VII on the report. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: Any questions or 39 1 comments from Lisa? 2 Rowe. 3 DIRECTOR ROWE: Just a comment. I know 4 that just in terms of the work that Lisa has done 5 in reviewing programs, programming this year in 6 terms of the information that we have gotten back 7 on the part of the Board, I want to thank her for 8 her efforts. 9 The completeness of the information and 10 giving up complete information in a likable form, 11 and the feedback I am getting from members through 12 consultation in the office is very commendable. 13 Thank you. (Applause) 14 REVIEW OF THE POSTAL BALLOTS 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: That brings us up to 16 the Review of the Postal Ballots. We were very 17 busy this year. There are a couple of corrections 18 on the postal ballots at the end, from the last 19 one you received, they got some additional voting. 20 So you will need to make a couple of 21 marks on that at the end. I need to read these in 22 for the court reporter. 23 Postal Ballot 0405-1, complaint filed by 24 Donna Anderson, Bonnie Kempe, Paul F. Kempe, Jr., 25 Elizabeth R. Henning, Patti Ballard, Lelia Berry, 40 1 and Sheila Nixon versus Noah Goddard. 2 The complaint stated, "On October 21 the 3 Web site www.dairygoatcheckregister.com was in 4 operation. This site was linked to the 5 district5news@yahoo.com list owned and moderated 6 by Noah Goddard. The site contained items of 7 financial information about the American Dairy 8 Goat Association. This information included 9 credit card numbers, bank account numbers, safety 10 box deposit numbers and tax, federal and state, 11 I.D. numbers. 12 "The undersigned determined that the 13 information on the site was published by Director 14 Noah Goddard, Membership No. 146795. It was 15 placed on the site in spite of a confidentiality 16 statement that was on the front page. 17 "We, the undersigned, feel that the 18 release of this information has placed the 19 American Dairy Goat Association in financial and 20 corporate peril as well as liability and 21 professional issues. Therefore, it is conduct 22 detrimental to the Association as stated in 23 Article IV, Section 7, of the ADGA Constitution." 24 Justified: Altheide, Bitter, Bozzo- 25 Baldenegro, Burks, Campbell, Phil Cassette, Dan 41 1 Considine, Daubert, Dean, Gustafson, Korhonen, 2 Maze, Page, Reyna, Rowe, Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen 3 Snyder, Pete Snyder, Strickland and Weaver. 4 Not justified were Faircloth and 5 Proctor. Abstentions were Anderson, Goddard, 6 Kempe, Rucker. 7 There was a note, vote postmarked after 8 the deadline of January 6th included Petersen that 9 voted not justified. No vote received from Pat 10 Hendrickson. 11 The total vote: justified 22; not 12 justified 2; abstentions 4; voted after deadline 13 1; not voting 1. The motion passed. 14 Postal Ballot 0405-02, proposed by Allen 15 Bitter, George Altheide, Linda Campbell. Laurie 16 Petersen, Pat Hendrickson, Tom Rucker, Bonnie 17 Kempe and Charlotte Sankey. 18 Proposal: Authorize and direct the 19 Association Manager to remove the following 20 language from the Primary Ballot Instructions: 21 "(Incumbent name) term of office does 22 expire or (incumbent names) terms of office to not 23 expire." 24 Approved: Altheide, Bitter, Burks, 25 Philip Cassette, Dean, Goddard, Gustafson, 42 1 Hendrickson, Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, Page, 2 Petersen, Rucker, Sankey, Saum and Weaver. 3 Disapproved: Dan Considine, Daubert, 4 Faircloth and Proctor. 5 Not voting: Anderson, Campbell, Reyna, 6 Rowe, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder and Strickland. 7 Total votes: Approved 17; disapproved 8 4; late votes 2; not voting 7. The motion passed. 9 Postal Ballot 0405-3. Complaint: Joyce 10 Vance versus Terri Gonzales. 11 Misrepresentation and conduct 12 detrimental to the Association. 13 Not justified: Altheide, Anderson, 14 Bitter, Bozzo-Baldenegro, Burks, Philip Cassette, 15 Dan Considine, Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Goddard, 16 Gustafson, Hendrickson, Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, 17 Page, Petersen, Proctor, Rowe, Sankey, Saum, Senn, 18 Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder and Weaver. 19 Justified: None. 20 Abstained: Rucker and Strickland. 21 Vote received late: Campbell (not 22 justified.) 23 Not voting: Reyna. 24 Complaint hearing not justified. 25 Postal Ballot 0405-4, proposed by 43 1 Directors Sharilyn Reyna and Christina L. 2 Strickland. We ask that the one dollar surcharge 3 on registration between April 1 and August 31 4 (voted in by the ADGA Board of Directors at the 5 2004 Annual Meeting) be rescinded. 6 Yes: Goddard, Gustafson, Faircloth, 7 Hendrickson, Korhonen, Page, Petersen, Proctor, 8 Reyna, Helen Snyder, Strickland. 9 No: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, Bozzo- 10 Baldenegro, Burks, Philip Cassette, Dan Considine, 11 Daubert, Dean, Kempe, Maze, Rowe, Rucker, Sankey, 12 Saum, Senn, Pete Snyder and Weaver for 18 no 13 votes. 14 The vote received late was Campbell. 15 She was a no vote. The motion failed. 16 Postal Ballot 0405-5. The ADGA 17 Executive Committee is recommending that repairs 18 be made to the roof of the ADGA office building. 19 Leaks have developed where the parapet walls 20 penetrate the roof. Two bids were received, with 21 the lowest bid being $4,410 from a company who has 22 performed satisfactory work on other projects for 23 ADGA. 24 Yes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, Bozzo- 25 Baldenegro, Cassette, Faircloth, Hendrickson, 44 1 Kempe, Korhonen, Page, Proctor, Rucker, Sankey, 2 Saum, Pete Snyder, Weaver for a total of 16. 3 No: Daubert, Goddard. 4 Three votes received late: Petersen 5 approved, Gustafson approved and Strickland 6 approved. 7 Nine were not voting: Burks, Campbell, 8 Considine, Dean, Maze, Reyna, Rowe, Senn and Helen 9 Snyder. The motion passed. 10 Postal Ballot 0405-6, which is the 11 Nigerian Dwarf breed eligible for exhibition at 12 the national show in 2005 as the first year of the 13 two-year requirement to be included as a breed 14 showing at the national show. See Page 24 in the 15 2005 Guidebook. 16 No: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, Bozzo- 17 Baldenegro, Cassette, Faircloth, Hendrickson, 18 Kempe, Korhonen, Page, Proctor, Rucker, Sankey, 19 Saum, Pete Snyder and Weaver. There were 16 no 20 votes. 21 There were 2 yes votes. They were 22 Daubert and Goddard. Three votes were received 23 late. 24 Petersen approved, Gustafson approved 25 and Strickland disapproved. 45 1 Nine were not voting: Burke, Campbell, 2 Considine, Dean, Maze, Reyna, Rowe, Senn and Helen 3 Snyder. The motion failed. 4 DIRECTOR PETERSEN: I don't remember 5 voting "yes" on that. I remember voting "no". 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: It was e-mailed to you 7 about a week ago. I am sorry about that. We will 8 check into that one and see what your ballot says. 9 Postal Ballot 0405-7, Director 10 Allocation Postal Ballot. The ballot was brought 11 forth from the EC and then withdrawn. 12 Postal Ballot 0405-8. The ADGA IM 13 Committee, including Directors Linda Campbell and 14 Daniel Considine, is recommending the process for 15 providing electronic services to ADGA members for 16 a cost of $35,000. 17 15 approved: Bitter, Bozzo, Campbell, 18 Cassette, Considine, Kohonen, Page, Reyna, Rowe 19 (with comments), Rucker, Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen 20 Snyder (e-mail vote followed by the deadline was 21 the regular ballot from Strickland). 22 14 disapproved: They were Anderson (by 23 e-mail), Altheide, Burks, Daubert, Dean, 24 Faircloth, Goddard, Gustafson, Hendrickson, Kempe, 25 Petersen, Proctor, Pete Snyder and Weaver. 46 1 Voting after the deadline by e-mail was 2 a no vote by Maze. The motion passed. 3 Postal Ballot 0405-9. J. Robert 4 Beauvais versus American Dairy Goat Association, 5 Donna Anderson, Philip M. Cassette, Charlotte 6 Sankey, Peter Snyder, Helen Snyder, Allen Bitter, 7 Bonnie Kempe, Carl Page, Cam Faircloth, Linda 8 Campbell, Ruth Weaver, Daniel Considine, Robin 9 Saum, Patricia A. Dean, George Altheide, Noah L. 10 Goddard, Jamie Burks, Marsha Gustafson, Annette 11 Maze, Vivian Proctor, Laurie Petersen, Christina 12 L. Strickland, Sharilyn Reyna, Patricia Morford, 13 Pat Hendrickson, Kristina Bozzo-Baldenegro, Karen 14 Senn, Dave Daubert, Tom Rucker and Joan Rowe. 15 Complainant complains against 16 Respondents that willful and continued violation 17 of the letter and spirit of the CBL and breach of 18 fiduciary duty to the corporation and membership 19 in refusing to take reasonable and necessary 20 action to bring the Association into compliance 21 with the equitable representation requirements of 22 the Constitution. 23 Not justified: Altheide, Anderson, 24 Bitter, Bozzo, Burks, Cassette, Considine, Dean, 25 Faircloth, Kempe, Korhonen, Maze (e-mail), Page, 47 1 Proctor, Rowe (e-mail), Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen 2 Snyder, Pete Snyder and Weaver. There were 21 not 3 justified. 4 Justified: Daubert, Goddard, 5 Hendrickson, Reyna, Rucker, Strickland. That was 6 for a total of 6. 7 Abstentions: Campbell, Gustafson, 8 Petersen (by e-mail), for 3. 9 The complaint deemed not justified. 10 Postal Ballot 0405-10. With the recent 11 notification of irregularity in the 2005 ADGA 12 General Election and realizing that each district 13 is a separate election, the following motions are 14 introduced as emergency postal ballots. 15 Please note that a vote to accept the 16 results of the election in any given District will 17 mean that the Director-Elect in that District will 18 be seated at the beginning of the Board meeting in 19 Kansas City in the normal manner. 20 A vote not to accept does not indicate 21 that fraud was committed in the election, only 22 that additional information is needed before 23 determining whether the results are accepted and 24 it is anticipated that in any District(s) for 25 which the Board does not accept the results, the 48 1 Board will address this in Kansas City prior to 2 the seating of the new Directors. 3 I move to accept the election results 4 from District I. 5 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 6 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 7 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Gustafson, Hendrickson, 8 Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, Page, Petersen (e-mail 9 vote), Proctor, Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), Rucker, 10 Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder, 11 Strickland and Weaver. There were 29 yes votes. 12 One no vote was by Goddard. Abstained was zero. 13 The motion passed. 14 I move to accept the election results 15 from District II. 16 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 17 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 18 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Gustafson, Hendrickson, 19 Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, Page (e-mail vote), 20 Petersen, Proctor, Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), 21 Rucker, Sankey, Saum, Senn, Strickland, Weaver. 22 There were 27 yes votes. There was one no vote, 23 Goddard by e-mail. Abstained were 2, Helen Snyder 24 and Pete Snyder. The motion passed. 25 I move to accept the election results 49 1 from District No. III. 2 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 3 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 4 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Gustafson, Hendrickson, 5 Korhonen, Maze, Petersen (e-mail vote), Proctor, 6 Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), Rucker, Sankey, Saum, 7 Senn, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder, Strickland and 8 Weaver. There were 27 yes votes. There were 2 no 9 votes: Goddard (e-mail vote), and Page. 10 Abstained was 1, Kempe. The motion passed. 11 I move to accept the election results 12 from District IV. 13 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 14 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Faircloth, 15 Gustafson, Hendrickson, Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, 16 Petersen (e-mail vote), Proctor, Reyna, Rowe (e- 17 mail vote), Rucker, Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen 18 Snyder, Pete Snyder, Strickland and Weaver. There 19 were 25 yes votes. There 2 no votes, Goddard and 20 Page. 21 There were three abstentions: Dan 22 Considine, Daubert and Dean. The motion passed. 23 I move to accept the election results 24 from District V. 25 Yes votes zero; no votes 28: Anderson, 50 1 Bitter, Bozzo, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 2 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Burks, Goddard (e-mail 3 vote), Gustafson, Hendrickson, Kempe, Korhonen, 4 Maze, Page, Petersen (e-mail vote), Proctor, 5 Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), Rucker, Sankey, Saum, 6 Senn, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder, Strickland and 7 Weaver. There was one abstention by Altheide. 8 The motion failed. 9 I move to accept the election results 10 from District VI. 11 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 12 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 13 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Gustafson, Hendrickson, 14 Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, Page, Petersen (e-mail 15 vote), Proctor, Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), Rucker, 16 Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder, 17 Strickland and Weaver. There were 29 yes votes. 18 There was one no vote by Goddard (e-mail vote). 19 Abstained were zero. The motion passed. 20 I move to accept the election results 21 from District VII. 22 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 23 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 24 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Gustafson, Hendrickson, 25 Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, Page, Petersen (e-mail 51 1 vote), Proctor, Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), Rucker, 2 Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder, 3 Strickland and Weaver. There were 28 yes votes. 4 There was one no vote by e-mail from Goddard. 5 There was one abstention, Strickland. The motion 6 passed. 7 I move to accept the election results 8 from District VIII. 9 Yes votes: Altheide, Anderson, Bitter, 10 Bozzo, Burks, Campbell, Cassette, Considine, 11 Daubert, Dean, Faircloth, Gustafson, Hendrickson, 12 Kempe, Korhonen, Maze, Petersen (e-mail vote), 13 Proctor, Reyna, Rowe (e-mail vote), Rucker, 14 Sankey, Saum, Senn, Helen Snyder, Pete Snyder, 15 Strickland and Weaver. There were 28 yes votes. 16 There were 2 no votes, one by Goddard by e-mail 17 and Page. There were no abstentions. The motion 18 passed. 19 That is the end of the postal ballots. 20 Any questions on those? 21 Reyna. 22 DIRECTOR REYNA: This is a point of 23 order. Mr. Nickel was voting, I believe, on this 24 first issue, and if he was, he should not have 25 been voting. 52 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: At today's Board 2 meeting, I did note when the Director left. His 3 vote should not count because of that. I 4 recognize that he did have his hand up when seated 5 at the table. Thank you for that clarification. 6 ANY OTHER OLD BUSINESS 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. We are up to Any 8 Other Old Business. Does anybody have anything? 9 Do we need a break before the elections or can we 10 do the elections and then take a break? Elections 11 are okay? It is up to you. 12 My watch says 9:31. We will have five 13 minutes. 14 DIRECTOR BITTER: When the election 15 starts, we usually have time for breaks at that 16 time. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Can we wait? We 18 will go ahead with the elections, then. I do 19 think we need a break. We have Directors leaving. 20 Let's go ahead and break for five minutes. It 21 will be quick. We have to take a break after the 22 elections anyway, so we will proceed with a break. 23 Thank you. 24 (RECESS.) 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: I think most of you are 53 1 ready. Please come back to your seats and we will 2 start with the elections. Thank you. We will 3 open the floor for nominations for President. 4 ELECTION OF OFFICERS 5 DIRECTOR PETE SNYDER: I nominate Robin 6 Saum. 7 DIRECTOR BACKUS: I nominate Tom Rucker. 8 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I decline the 9 nomination. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Are there any 11 other nominations? We need two. 12 Altheide. 13 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: I nominate Pete 14 Snyder. 15 DIRECTOR PETE SNYDER: I decline. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Gustafson. 17 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: I nominate Linda 18 Campbell. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth. 20 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: I make a motion 21 that we close nominations. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: A motion has been made 23 to close nominations. Is there a second? 24 Bitter. 25 DIRECTOR BITTER: I second it. 54 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Linda, do you want to 2 speak? You never turn down the opportunity to 3 speak. (Laughter) I didn't call for the vote. 4 All in favor of closing the nominations for 5 President, please say "aye"; all those opposed. 6 There are no "no" votes. Any abstentions? No 7 abstentions. The motion carried. 8 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Thank you very much 9 for the nomination. Having served in this 10 position before, I well know what it takes for 11 one's body throughout the year. And I do 12 appreciate this. 13 I think I have some experience that I 14 can contribute to the Executive Committee. A 15 couple of folks have asked me about my health. I 16 am very happy to say that I am recovered. When I 17 asked my prognosis, I was told you can be hit by a 18 car, that is a possibility, but your health is 19 excellent. I thank you for those that asked that 20 question. 21 With that said, and I will not go into 22 the details of my history in that, I will say I 23 appreciate the energy and ability that Robin has 24 brought to this position, and I would just like to 25 thank you very much, Robin. I think you are a 55 1 very capable candidate. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: You make me feel like I 3 am not doing a good job. (Laughter) I am getting 4 nervous now. No, it has been a trying year, but I 5 will tell you for the most part it has not been a 6 bad job. 7 The Directors have been very supportive. 8 When they have not been there, there has been a 9 reason and we have addressed the reason and moved 10 on. Another thing, it is important that we all 11 work together, and if there is an issue you bring 12 it forth and deal with it and move on. 13 It has been a good year. I like the 14 communications because I promised I would talk to 15 you. I started counting when I got over 100, 16 which was sometime in September. I think I will 17 continue to do that. I plan to keep that. 18 I like to e-mail the Directors that 19 seemed receptive to the e-mail list. I appreciate 20 that. We have ballot boxes that have lids with 21 holes in it at the request of Director Proctor. 22 Nobody will be touching your ballot when you put 23 it in. 24 We will pass the ballots out and John 25 Pfeiler, Julie Matthys, Tom Williamson and Sally 56 1 Hitchner will be checking your ballots in the 2 boxes. 3 Has everybody given their ballots to one 4 of the ballot collectors? It will take them a 5 couple of minutes. Does anybody have anything 6 they want to have for discussion while they are 7 out tallying the ballots? I am shocked. Okay. 8 Linda brought up a good point. Tonight 9 is the DeLaval barbecue. The buses start leaving, 10 I believe, at 5:45. It is at the DeLaval 11 Headquarters, one of the major sponsors of the 12 convention. She would like as many people to go 13 as can. 14 You will wear your name badge and they 15 will be using the name badge in the drawing. I am 16 not sure what it is. The drinks are included. 17 DIRECTOR RUCKER: What is the intention 18 of the Board this evening? 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: I don't know that. 20 Probably, we will go. She would like us to break 21 before 6:00 so that we can go to that. But that 22 is up to you as a Board. It is inside, is my 23 understanding. 24 I don't know if the Directors got an e- 25 mail through the Site Committee with Pat. But, 57 1 anyway, the paintings were finished by Regina, and 2 they are down in the vendor area if you would like 3 to stop by and view them. There were all the 4 breeds at the tables in the back areas. 5 Pat also had a drawing that was drawn 6 for the Nigerian at the request of the Linear 7 Committee. It is not down there, but if you want 8 to see it Pat will provide that for you. 9 Strickland. 10 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I would like to 11 say the finals in the youth representative 12 contest, I would just like to say that the people 13 that worked in that area did a marvelous job 14 getting things together, and that it was not only 15 educational but if some of the members, and I 16 think that if a few of us as Directors could 17 attend that event so there would be a good show of 18 the Board. 19 I realize we have Committee meetings 20 going on and club meetings, but I sure would like 21 to see an increased participation by the Board at 22 that event. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: The new representative 24 is Anabelle Thomas from Missouri. How nice for 25 District V, in their hometown. 58 1 DIRECTOR PETE SNYDER: Katie Jack from 2 California is the alternate. If anyone sees them 3 come in, we will introduce them. We would like to 4 recognize Jimmy Young up here helping us today. 5 He was last year's new ADGA press. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Pfeiler, Director 7 Proctor's ballot was not collected. 8 John Pfeiler is going to report the 9 vote. 10 MR. PFEILER: For President, Robin Saum, 11 21; Linda Campbell, 8. One no vote. (Applause) 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. Okay. Now, 13 we are open to Vice-President, First Vice- 14 President. 15 Lawson. 16 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I nominate Tom Rucker. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Helen Snyder. 18 DIRECTOR HELEN SNYDER: I nominate Phil 19 Cassette. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Backus. 21 DIRECTOR BACKUS: I nominate Pat 22 Hendrickson. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth. 24 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: I move the 25 nominations cease. 59 1 DIRECTOR BITTER: I second it. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: You have heard the 3 motion. All those in favor will say "aye"; all 4 those opposed "no". Any abstentions? The motion 5 passed. 6 Okay. Tom, you were nominated first. 7 Do you want to go ahead and speak? 8 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I appreciate the 9 confidence. Hopefully over the past year I have 10 shown that I have the knowledge and am not afraid 11 to communicate. Maybe I communicate too much. I 12 am not sure. 13 Certainly I believe in openness and 14 bringing issues out to the public and get them 15 discussed, and certainly can see all the change, 16 with the Executive Committee, and we feel like we 17 do the job for you, and that is great. 18 One thing I have always stated is that I 19 think we tend to run things from the top down and 20 we should put that to the members, with the ones 21 with the most control, and the Executive Committee 22 reports to the Board and not the other way around. 23 That is a big thing of mine. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Phil, do you want to 25 say anything? 60 1 DIRECTOR PHILIP CASSETTE: Thank you for 2 the nomination. I just want to briefly state also 3 for you that have known me for years, you have 4 heard the background a little bit. On my 5 background, just kind of bear with us so I can 6 cover those with the new people. 7 My background in goats started 35 years 8 ago, and when I saw Sheila's presentation of the 9 Pioneers dealing with the top 100, I am getting 10 close. I am not quite there. Hopefully, we have 11 those long-standing members there and will 12 continue to have them. 13 In those years I have been involved in 14 all the programs. Well, my official response, my 15 dad and I have about 40. I don't really count, we 16 don't care to count numbers we have up here, but 17 that is my background on goats. 18 I have been on the Board a long time. I 19 have served you and I appreciate that opportunity. 20 My background, as far as professional, I am a CPA. 21 I had that wonderful camp back in the '80s and 22 worked for a public accounting firm for ten years, 23 and now I work for a group of auto dealerships as 24 the current general manager. 25 I didn't know anything about cars but to 61 1 put the key in the ignition. The way I ended up 2 in a car business dealership is that a dealership 3 is more interesting. We have 100 employees with 4 challenges. 5 As of the 1st of November, my job is 6 changing a little bit. I am back to the finance. 7 They decided they needed to get me back over there 8 and the job changed back. That is my background. 9 I appreciate your consideration and I will 10 continue to work hard for the Association. Thank 11 you. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Pat Hendrickson. 13 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: I think the 14 microphone should always be on. Thank you for the 15 nomination. I have been involved in ADGA for many 16 years. I have been a life member for several 17 years now. 18 I have been in all the active programs. 19 I am quite familiar with the HIR and all the 20 programs, and I really do support and promote 21 those programs to other members. I have been to 22 many national shows. 23 I have attended the conventions, prior 24 to my time on the Board, and were concerned about 25 the workings of ADGA, and should you elect me 62 1 Vice-President, I will be happy to serve in that 2 position. 3 Certainly, I will be able and open for 4 the membership as well as other members on the 5 Board. I will want your input, and I appreciate 6 that from each person. I have been an active 7 Director participating in the discussion. I think 8 we should have open consideration and that is time 9 for your feedback. Thank you. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Do you guys want 11 to go ahead and collect the ballots? This is just 12 a little tidbit of information. Bryan is sitting 13 in the back of the room. He is our computer 14 programmer. We just signed off on ROSS a week 15 ago. I think it was the final sign-off date. 16 Let's give him a round of applause. 17 Bryan, do you want to stand up? 18 (Applause) Tomorrow he is going to be doing a 19 full demonstration for you on the system and how 20 it works, and the capabilities of it. You will 21 see him and Gary Moore, who is back there. 22 Gary, why don't you stand up. Gary has 23 been serving as our chair for the Committee, and 24 without his help we would have really been in 25 trouble this year. He is really instrumental in 63 1 getting this project going. 2 You will see them hovered in the lobby 3 over a computer. If you have computer issues that 4 relate to ROSS, or any of you need help, ask one 5 of them and they will help you out. 6 Andrea is also sitting back there with 7 them. Andrea did all of our Web site stuff for us 8 this year. If you are on the Web site, Andrea is 9 the one who put it on there. She was very 10 responsive to our needs and very timely getting 11 that information out there for us. 12 Berry. 13 DIRECTOR BERRY: I was going to wait 14 until the Registration Committee report, but I 15 just can't resist. I am so tickled about the 16 number of registrations for the Nigerians and 17 Sables. 18 When I looked at those numbers, 1,242 19 for Nigerian and 1,382 for Sables in our first 20 year, I am just tickled pink. 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you, Lelia. 22 Backus. 23 DIRECTOR BACKUS: Maybe I can ask 24 Shirley a question. Shirley, you have given us a 25 total number of registrations year to date. Would 64 1 you care to guess what the final quarter is going 2 to yield? 3 ASSOCIATION MANAGER McKENZIE: I am 4 afraid that would be a little difficult to guess 5 especially with the fact that the number of 6 registrations are lower in the fourth quarter 7 anyway. But I will be glad to provide that to the 8 Board at the end of the quarter. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: John Pfeiler. 10 MR. PFEILER: First Vice-President, Pat 11 Hendrickson 5; Tom Rucker 5; Phil Cassette 20. 12 (Applause) 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Phil will remain 14 the First Vice-President. 15 Second Vice-President nominations are in 16 order. 17 Morris. 18 DIRECTOR MORRIS: I would like to 19 nominate Dan Considine. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 21 Bryan. 22 DIRECTOR BRYAN: I nominate George 23 Altheide. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 25 Lawson. 65 1 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I nominate Tom Rucker. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth. 3 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: I move the 4 nominations be closed. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is there a second? 6 DIRECTOR ROWE: I second it. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: All those in favor of 8 closing nominations for Second Vice-President, 9 please indicate by saying "aye"; those opposed 10 "no". There are no "no" votes. Any abstentions? 11 There are no abstentions. The motion passed. 12 The first one nominated is Daniel. 13 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I 14 appreciate the nomination and I am interested in 15 continuing to work with Robin and Phil. It has 16 been really good to have a relationship with Robin 17 in that she is able to ask a few things quite 18 properly, and we can work through them. 19 If we don't see the light, we can work 20 through them. I think I have a good knowledge of 21 the programs and I would like to do it. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: The second nominated 23 was George Altheide. 24 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: I would like to 25 thank you for my nomination, and I have served on 66 1 the Executive Committee for two years before, and 2 I would like to come back on the Executive 3 Committee. 4 We hear a lot about communications, but 5 a part of the communications is being able to 6 disagree without being disagreeable. I think I 7 have shown I can disagree with people but still 8 work with them. 9 If you look at some of the postal 10 ballots that were brought forth this year, you 11 will notice that I worked with a wide range of 12 Directors from across the board trying to make 13 improvements and work with ADGA. 14 A little bit about myself. I am what is 15 called a speed expediter, which I provide home 16 health-care to disabled adults. I do that in the 17 home. I am available. I have the time to commit 18 to the job. 19 As far as the line of communications, I 20 am sure most people sitting at the table have at 21 one time or another thought I wish he would just 22 shut up. Thank you. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Rucker, do you want to 24 address the Board? 25 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I have not much to add 67 1 except participation in ADGA programs. We were 2 approximately ten years before it became over the 3 top for us to continue. We do appraise every 4 other year. 5 I believe our Nigerian was the first 6 herd of Nigerians appraised this year. The 1,200 7 registrations, when I wrote the check out, I felt 8 like half were from our group. We did move our 9 entire herd of 59 in the ADGA herd book. 10 We went to 28 shows with our Nigerians 11 to make sure they were promoted. If anyone needed 12 to insure they were successful, probably I put my 13 money where it is obvious. I do support all the 14 ADGA programs and I again would appreciate your 15 consideration. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do we have the results, 17 John? 18 MR. PFEILER: Yes. Vice-President, Dan 19 Considine 14; George Altheide 8; Tom Rucker 8. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. We need a 21 majority vote of 16, so we need to reballot. Any 22 of the candidates want to say anything at this 23 moment before we reballot? Reballot, I heard from 24 the left from Berry. 25 If you are walking up to the front, we 68 1 put a chair over here because there are cords. We 2 have put the chair there to draw attention to the 3 fact there are cords on the floor and you need to 4 watch it. 5 We have John Pfeiler for the second 6 ballot for Second Vice-President. 7 MR. PFEILER: For Second Vice-President, 8 Dan Considine 14, George Altheide 8, Tom Rucker 8. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: We still don't have 10 enough. We need 15. Do you need to reballot 11 again? 12 Altheide. 13 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: I withdraw. 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: Altheide has withdrawn. 15 So the third balloting will be between Dan 16 Considine and Paul Rucker. 17 John Pfeiler, do you have the tally 18 report? 19 MR. PFEILER: Second Vice-President, Dan 20 Considine 20; Tom Rucker 10. 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Dan is the new 22 Second Vice-President. 23 We need to have our first member-at- 24 large. 25 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I nominate Tom Rucker. 69 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 2 Rowe. 3 DIRECTOR ROWE: I nominate Linda 4 Campbell. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bryan. 6 DIRECTOR BRYAN: I nominate George 7 Altheide. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Backus. 9 DIRECTOR BACKUS: I nominate Pat 10 Hendrickson. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth. 12 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: I move the 13 nominations cease. 14 DIRECTOR BITTER: I second it. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: A motion for 16 nominations to be closed has been made by 17 Faircloth, seconded by Bitter. All those in favor 18 of closing nominations for the member-at-large, 19 please say "aye"; those opposed "no". There are 20 no "no" votes. Any abstentions? No abstentions. 21 The motion passes. 22 Okay. I think we have heard from 23 everybody, and i will give everybody an 24 opportunity to speak again if they would like. 25 Rucker, you were first on the list. 70 1 Campbell, I knew she wouldn't decline. 2 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Okay. I don't 3 appreciate that giggling up here in the corner. 4 (Laughter) I again appreciate the nomination. I 5 think I have shown abilities in the past, and I 6 would like to continue to offer my services to the 7 Association. 8 I have participated in programs. I have 9 served on a majority of the Committees and chaired 10 a number of Committees over the years. For 30 11 some years, 31 years, it is hard to remember your 12 years with the Association, but I have been a 13 member since 1982. I do remember that. 14 I have represented ADGA and the goat 15 industry nationally and internationally, and with 16 a number of issues, and I would like to continue 17 working with the Association in the capacity of 18 leadership. I would appreciate your vote. Thank 19 you. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: George Altheide. 21 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: No. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: You are going to pass. 23 And Pat Hendrickson. 24 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: I will pass. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: Go ahead and collect 71 1 the ballots, please. 2 Here is John for the Members-at-Large. 3 MR. PFEILER: Member-at-Large, Linda 4 Campbell 9; Tom Rucker 6; George Altheide 11; Pat 5 Hendrickson 4. 6 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: I will withdraw 7 from the second ballot. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Hendrickson is 9 withdrawing. Okay. We will have our second 10 balloting for the Member-at-Large. We are voting 11 between Tom Rucker, Linda Campbell and George 12 Altheide. 13 I didn't realize we had not passed out 14 the Finance Committee report with the Proposed 15 Budget. Shirley and Lisa will hand them out. The 16 Committee did meet for two days and numerous 17 hours, and we have the EC recommendations coming 18 to you. 19 It is not as bad as it looks, although 20 it is thick. It is about a page and a half. The 21 International Goat Association is asking us to 22 renew our membership. I think I provided you with 23 the information. 24 John Pfeiler is coming with our second 25 ballot for the Member-at-Large. 72 1 MR. PFEILER: The Member-at-Large, Linda 2 Campbell 12; George Altheide 11; Tom Rucker 7. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: I heard Tom Rucker has 4 7; Linda Campbell received 12; and George Altheide 5 received 11. Pat has withdrawn. We need to do 6 our third balloting. We will have three 7 candidates again. 8 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I withdraw. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Tom Rucker is 10 withdrawing. We have two candidates, Linda 11 Campbell and George Altheide. 12 MR. PFEILER: Member-at-Large, Linda 13 Campbell 16; George Altheide 14. 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Our Member-at- 15 Large will be Linda Campbell. We will open it up 16 for nominations for Member-at-Large. 17 Lawson. 18 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I nominate Tom Rucker. 19 Bryan. 20 DIRECTOR BRYAN: I nominate George 21 Altheide. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: Dean. 23 DIRECTOR DEAN: I nominate Bonnie Kempe. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell. 25 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I nominate Chris 73 1 Strickland. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth, are you 3 going to nominate somebody? 4 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: No. I move the 5 nominations cease. 6 DIRECTOR BITTER: I second it. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth moved we 8 close nominations, seconded by Bitter. All in 9 favor of closing nominations for the member-at- 10 large, please say "aye"; those opposed "no". 11 There are no "no" votes. Any abstentions? There 12 are no abstentions. All right. It is closed. 13 George, do you want to speak again? 14 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: No. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: Tom Rucker, do you want 16 to speak again? 17 DIRECTOR RUCKER: No. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bonnie Kempe, would you 19 like to speak? 20 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. Thank you for the 21 nomination. If I am elected, I am willing to 22 serve. I have done it before. When I lived in 23 District 1, I was on the EC at that time. I am 24 not now, but I have participated in every entry 25 program and served on more Committees than I can 74 1 remember at the time. So, again, thank you for 2 the nomination and I am willing to serve. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Chris Strickland. 4 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I thank you for 5 the nomination, Linda. I have been on the EC in 6 the past. I think what I see is some background 7 in understanding the programs that we have to 8 offer professionally. 9 I come from an education background and 10 I work in the education field. So communications 11 is also very high on my list. What I would really 12 like to see us do is to have some sort of long- 13 range goals. 14 I think we need to be more proactive 15 instead of having to be reactive all the time. It 16 cuts into what we see at the college level with 17 accreditation. You have a goal and you have to 18 evaluate how you set to get that goal. 19 I think ADGA needs to move in that 20 direction and that direction needs to come between 21 Board meetings from the Executive Committee. I 22 would like to be a part of that and I also would 23 appreciate your support. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Those up for 25 nomination are George Altheide, Tom Rucker, Bonnie 75 1 Kempe and Chris Strickland. 2 I recognize John Pfeiler. 3 MR. PFEILER: Member-at-large, Altheide 4 10; Tom Rucker 8; Bonnie Kempe 6; Chris Strickland 5 6. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: Would anybody like to 7 speak again? 8 George? 9 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: No. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Tom? 11 DIRECTOR RUCKER: No. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bonnie? 13 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: And Chris? 15 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: No. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. They are passing 17 out the second ballots, I believe. 18 I recognize John Pfeiler. 19 MR. PFEILER: Member-at-Large, Altheide 20 15; Rucker 7; Bonnie Kempe 1; Chris Strickland 6, 21 and 1 invalid. Excuse me. There was one write-in 22 for Linda Campbell, 1 vote. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: We need to have a third 24 ballot. You will be voting either for George 25 Altheide, Tom Rucker, Bonnie Kempe or Chris 76 1 Strickland. 2 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I am withdrawing. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: I believe they are 4 passing the ballots out for us. Linda Shepard is 5 passing a trifold out that was put together by the 6 Performance Programs Committees, Joint Committees. 7 This is a little document. 8 There will be some changes, and this is 9 a working document that we had at the meeting last 10 night. So this is just a sample of a little 11 pamphlet that we can hand out. We have had a lot 12 of calls for that, people wanting this type of 13 information in a single pamphlet form. 14 When we open it up, we have got some 15 pictures in there. If you get awards, you get a 16 picture. 17 Lisa. 18 MS. SHEPARD: We have color copies. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Yes. These are in 20 black and white, but we have color photos. They 21 are very nice. 22 John Pfeiler. 23 MR. PFEILER: The second Member-at-Large 24 vote, George Altheide 18; Tom Rucker 7; and Chris 25 Strickland 5. 77 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. We will have 2 George Altheide as our second Member-at-Large. We 3 are done with the balloting. 4 Since we have only one report, is it 5 okay with you people to continue? Is it okay with 6 the Board? If you look at your agenda, actually 7 we had the Preliminary Finance Committee Report. 8 I would like to change the order of that and do 9 the TC Committee report, the DNA report and the 10 ADGA Research Foundation report, and then Finance. 11 The Committee chair has to leave today. 12 If we don't do that, we will lose our opportunity 13 to get that. If there are no objections to that, 14 we will do the TC Committee report next. The 15 chairmen are Julie Matthys and Steve Considine. 16 We have an addendum coming from the TC Committee, 17 so once they are punched they will be passed out. 18 Does everybody have a copy of the 19 report? Julie is going to start first with the 20 paper that you just received. 21 TC COMMITTEE REPORT 22 MS. JULIE MATTHYS: For the training 23 conference that was held this past weekend, we had 24 $6,675, and we had local expenses and also staff 25 expenses totalling $6,339.81. Two numbers on 78 1 there are estimates. 2 Part of the food numbers, we had $100 in 3 there for snacks, and that estimate came in, and 4 the travel expenses for the co-chairmen are 5 estimated at $800. We made around $35, so 6 basically the training conference was a very 7 successful training conference. 8 We didn't have a large attendance, but 9 we were really happy with the cost savings and the 10 candidates and the number of people that were able 11 to pass. We have new apprentices totalling 11 12 people who represent a net gain of nine judges. 13 We had two people that the licenses were 14 up for renewal who did not come back and renew 15 their licenses, and two people qualified for 16 advanced status. We also had a CC attachment and 17 information from that training conference was 18 included in your mid-year report. 19 We also held two TC instructors 20 certification-type meetings this year. At the 21 training conference we had four people who are 22 qualifying for TC instruction participation. They 23 are Julie Berry, Joan Rowe, Terri Backerhale and 24 myself. 25 We have a 2006 special TC schedule for 79 1 Twin Falls, Idaho, for a weekend in May. The 2 local coordinator is Patty Sidell. We would like 3 to thank she and her Committee for all the help in 4 the training conference, and they did a good job 5 of helping to coordinate animals both at the event 6 in Tonganoxie yesterday. 7 We would like to thank the local host 8 for doing a good job in providing animals and 9 everything, that it worked out great for the 10 candidates and everything was very comfortable for 11 everybody. Everything was provided that we asked 12 for. They did a tremendous job. (Applause) 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Does anyone have any 14 questions for Julie on that front page? 15 Stephen Considine. 16 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: It has been a real 17 pleasure for me to work with Julie this year as 18 co-chair of the Committee. When she leaves today, 19 we will send that big black suitcase to Indiana 20 and I will not have to take it back to California 21 anymore. She will be taking the TC material with 22 her. 23 We have drafted the year-end report, and 24 you should have received it earlier in your 25 packet. I don't feel any need to go over all of 80 1 this unless some of you have specific questions on 2 things. That is other than what we have proposed 3 for Board action, which was one item. 4 First, does anyone have any questions or 5 comments about anything in this report before we 6 get to the items for Board action? 7 Dan Considine. 8 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: This is kind 9 of a difference in my reading (b) on that first 10 page as compared to the sixth on the second page. 11 It appears on the first page you have a unanimous 12 response that changed the fall-back rule. 13 Is that right? 14 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: You are referring 15 to Item 6 on the first page and continues on to 16 the second? 17 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: The one I 18 have got is (b) on the first page. 19 DIRECTOR RUCKER: It is (d)? 20 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: In the mid- 21 year report, it is not titled, you may not have 22 it, unanimous to make a change, and then based on 23 that I thought they would be bringing it to the 24 Board to make a change in the rule, and then we 25 get over to No. 6, and I was just handed it, and 81 1 it states there were just two or three or four 2 people here, four people on the Committee that -- 3 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: At the time of the 4 mid-year report, which was filed in April, there 5 were no votes received from the Committee members. 6 All members were in favor of eliminating the fall- 7 back rule. The co-chairs did not vote. 8 Their feeling on that was not reflected 9 in that vote, because as chairmen we don't vote on 10 things unless there is a tie. There was one 11 Committee member who did not respond, and yet at 12 that point, who wrote a very lengthy letter later 13 talking about the fall-back rule, why we had the 14 fall-back rule. 15 That was the former TC Chairman, Doug 16 Thompson. He voted against it. That is not 17 reflected in the first report. 18 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think we 19 need to read the rule as a whole. I think in 20 reading that you may have been negligent by 21 granting the motion if you have a majority that is 22 wanting that action. You didn't have a majority. 23 I can't see that. 24 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: A majority vote 25 was voted unanimously as reported on the mid-year 82 1 report. After getting comments on the issue, 2 Julie and I talked about it, and we really don't 3 think that this is a good idea. 4 I suppose this is the way to bring it to 5 the Board, the way you bring it up for discussion, 6 and we would like the Board to make the decision 7 on whether or not we would like to remove the 8 judging fall-back rule. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Rowe. 10 DIRECTOR ROWE: As a member of that 11 Committee, it is a complex issue. Even though 12 there might have been an initial vote, it would 13 seem to me that perhaps Steve and Julie's actions 14 to put it back to the Committee for further 15 consideration with more information is in order. 16 As a member of the Committee who voted in favor of 17 the original vote, I prefer that we do that. 18 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: That 19 explanation, I think, satisfies me. I am taking 20 it that your point is made by Doug Thompson 21 probably prevents some of the other motions, and 22 if that is true then we don't need to do it now. 23 I would like to see that. There is 24 apparently a majority of the Committee calling for 25 action, and the chair is not bringing the action 83 1 to the Board. It appears to have evolved. I 2 accept what you have done. 3 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Before we 4 recognize Terry, I do apologize for the way we 5 handled this. But I wanted the whole area of 6 discussion to come before the Board, but I also 7 wanted it clear that we did get the vote, and the 8 chairmen did not agree with the action that was 9 originally voted on. We took that vote very early 10 in the year like in January on the vote on that. 11 DIRECTOR SENN: I agree with Joan that 12 we voted on this as presented, and we had 13 discussion, and it was a vote and there was 14 information conducted and further discussion 15 throughout the year, and it came back different 16 from what it was presented. It was continuing 17 discussion, and I agree that it go back to 18 Committee. 19 DIRECTOR BERRY: I am a Committee member 20 and I agree with that position. I was unclear on 21 what was going on. I think the issue should go 22 back to the Committee. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 24 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Are there any 25 other questions? I am assuming that it is just 84 1 going back to the Committee, or does the Board 2 have to take some action on it? 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: No. 4 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: What was committed 5 for Board action, you have in front of you, and 6 again some of you may question why this particular 7 thing is in the training conference report. It is 8 because it affects our Committees also. 9 Julie and I as co-chair of this 10 Committee also sit on the Judges' Committee, the 11 Shows Committee. The Shows Committee -- the 12 Executive Committee has been putting us on other 13 Committees, because we felt that in the past we 14 needed more communication and interaction between 15 these Committees on issues which were going to be 16 of interest or concern with both Committees. 17 And this week in discussion with people, 18 the proposed three strikes rule, a terminology 19 emerges for me where I could really make clear for 20 everybody what the intent was in the three strike 21 rule. 22 Right now, we have the Judges' Committee 23 that would deal with complaint against the judge, 24 and the Shows Committee will deal with the 25 irregularity and the conduct of show rules, and/or 85 1 report of awards, which in the last few years we 2 have made them responsible for. 3 It was like the Committee will decide 4 whether there was -- we have to hear it and none 5 of that changed. Basically, the Committee was 6 being asked to either decide whether there was a 7 felony or not. 8 There was no middle ground between the 9 white not having a problem and the black, the fact 10 there was a felony. The three strike rule is an 11 attempt to create a middle ground for Committees, 12 where the time that comes before the Committee, 13 the Judges' Committee may be concerned about the 14 conduct of the judge, and rather than to come 15 before the Board and asking for a letter of 16 reprimand, the Committee has been sending a letter 17 of concern to the judge, which is sort of a 18 compromise gray area dealing with it. 19 We don't really feel that mandates a 20 hearing in that formal process, but we really 21 think the judge should pay attention to what has 22 been said by somebody. We call it a letter of 23 concern. 24 It is sort of a middle area, created to 25 use that as a misdemeanor now. So, the concept 86 1 behind the three strike rule would be to create a 2 misdemeanor option vote where the Committee will 3 say we should not have the hearing at all, and a 4 middle ground thing, hey, there is a problem here 5 that needs to be acknowledged. 6 The judge needs to be made aware of it 7 as opposed to going to a full hearing procedure. 8 What is going to happen now with those letters of 9 concern, with things that were reported concerns? 10 It is a middle ground where they just sort of 11 slipped through the crack and there is no follow- 12 up. 13 Our feeling is after three letters of 14 concern, a misdemeanor middle area occurred, 15 something should definitely be happening. It is 16 not an attempt to remove the final decision from 17 the Board at all, let me assure you of that, but 18 it is the way to say after we get three 19 misdemeanor-type letters of concern, then three 20 strikes, like you do by a majority vote of the 21 Committee. 22 After three of them, then we come to the 23 Board and say, hey, you know, we have these three 24 listed incidents, and situations that we want the 25 Board to look at and we would recommend the course 87 1 of action, whether a formal letter of reprimand or 2 revocation of license. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. You have the 4 motion before you there and the decision requiring 5 Board action. 6 Altheide. 7 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Well, I understand 8 what this says and I thought what you said is just 9 a little different. According to this, if there 10 are three strikes accumulated with no limitation 11 of time, then the judge shall use all instruments 12 without any mention of a Board vote in there. 13 Linda pointed that out to me. 14 The other thing you referred to them as 15 misdemeanors, with most misdemeanors in regular 16 normal language, they would eventually work off 17 your records. I wonder if the fact that we had no 18 time limitations that a judge could do it because 19 they have the report of the awards over one year? 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Steve Considine. 21 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: With that time 22 limit thing there, certainly it could be amended. 23 I think part of the feeling of that is that when 24 the complaints are filed on the two Committees, 25 and I understand the judges' training conference 88 1 doesn't field the complaint. 2 We try to instruct judges to stay out of 3 trouble. But we have what we call the repeat 4 offender thing where we constantly, and I can say 5 constant, we have judges who are chronically late 6 with show reports. 7 That is not just one instance. We have 8 judges who are chronically offending Show 9 Committees, exhibitors, where letters have come in 10 to the Committee. Ninety-five percent of these 11 never go to a hearing. 12 But when we look as a Committee at what 13 is happening, it is the same thing that comes back 14 to us year after year about these judges. That is 15 why we have them put a time limit on it, so it 16 will be an accumulation of the same repeated 17 activity or behavior which means that you address 18 which is now just sort of falling through the 19 crack. 20 To add to that, because it is the 21 general membership, people are reluctant to file a 22 formal complaint, because they feel there is no 23 policy into it anyway, and we are just now looking 24 into the judges. We really proposed this to meet 25 some punishment for judges' behavior and 89 1 discipline. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Dan Considine. 3 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: I am not 4 sure that the last three sentences are clear to 5 me, three strikes and you lose your license. You 6 know, you can put out contracts if you want to and 7 wish to judge again. Now, I read tenure to mean 8 not lose your license. 9 Do you mean they really lose their 10 license or they just still will be able to 11 complete the judging on the current renewal, and 12 then at the next renewal they start it? Which is 13 it? 14 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: We haven't 15 addressed this issue and questioned what 16 revocation of license means. The interpretation 17 that we have agreed upon is that revocation of 18 license means loss of tenure. 19 That means that when someone has the 20 license revoked, if they wish to be an active 21 judge, they have to start over again at ground 22 zero. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: Rowe. 24 DIRECTOR ROWE: A point of 25 clarification. I think that means we start the 90 1 clock. I believe that indicates that into the 2 first year instead of being interpreted as an 3 apprentice, they would start as a peer license, 4 and you would just resurface it. 5 That, to me, is loss of tenure where 6 conceptually means that and revocation of license 7 would mean that you start as an applicant. If a 8 successful candidate, it would be that first year 9 would start before the start of the time and 10 also -- 11 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Tell me if I am 12 wrong. We discussed this not long ago. What we 13 were intending to imply was that it started off 14 with an apprentice license. Once your license is 15 revoked, you are out of the system. That is you 16 are out of the system, and when you come back in 17 the first time as a candidate. 18 DIRECTOR SENN: Actually it will go out. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell. 20 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Each of the issues 21 of reprimand recommended by the Committee, the 22 Board would be making that decision on the 23 reprimand each time that this is presented. And 24 then if there are three reprimands, so that three 25 opportunities the Board has had to review that, 91 1 then it is automatic; is that correct? 2 The Board does not vote on the final, 3 the Board votes individually with each reprimand 4 as I read this; is that correct? 5 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Yes. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: Backus. 7 DIRECTOR BACKUS: I am sorry for the 8 confusion. I move that we send this back to the 9 Committee. I think an awful lot of work has been 10 done on this, and it is an important problem that 11 needs to be solved. 12 But a number of us that have raised or 13 suggested problems here, that is a point system, 14 you know, accumulation of 20 points or 10. I 15 don't want to make a suggestion here, but I think 16 I would like to see the Committee work on it a 17 little longer. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: We have a motion from 19 the floor to refer to Committee. Is there a 20 second to that motion? There is no second to that 21 motion. 22 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: I second the 23 motion. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Yes, Gustafson seconds 25 the motion. Any discussion on the motion to refer 92 1 this back to Committee? 2 Hendrickson. 3 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: Really, I don't 4 want to see this referred back to the Committee 5 because this has been an ongoing problem for a 6 number of years. We hear people do not want to 7 make complaints against judges because on the 8 complaints that they don't do anything about it, 9 or if we complain we are not going to place well 10 someplace. 11 This sort of allows the complaints that 12 don't actually have a lot of standing, but they do 13 accumulate to be looked at down the road and 14 probably should have more than just a letter of 15 reprimand because of some of the things. I don't 16 want to see it go back to Committee. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Hendrickson speaking 18 not to refer to Committee. The motion on the 19 floor is to refer back to Committee. All those in 20 favor, please say "aye"; those opposed "no". Are 21 there any abstentions? The "yes" votes, please. 22 The vote is to refer this. Backus. 23 Anybody else to refer to Committee? Yes, 24 Gustafson. All right. The motion failed to refer 25 to Committee. We are back to the original motion. 93 1 Senn. 2 DIRECTOR SENN: I would like to change 3 it, all of the revocation of license, is that what 4 you are going to put in when you say the judge 5 shall tender their license and it will be revoked, 6 or revocation of license? 7 Then the next one after that is a 8 concern that I have with, should the contract 9 currently be honored? If someone has a license 10 revoked here at the Board meeting, personally, 11 with the judges we sign a contract a year out, and 12 if you have lost your license and no longer on 13 that list, and revoke that license, that person 14 should not be judging. 15 Am I correct? 16 Berry. 17 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. There is a word 18 and sentence in here that makes it unclear. I 19 think when I was talking to the rookie judges 20 yesterday, and they heard about this, their 21 concern was three times I forget to put a number 22 in on a report of awards and suddenly I have lost 23 my license. 24 I told him that wasn't true. But it 25 doesn't say that. I believe a letter of concern 94 1 is very different from a letter of reprimand. I 2 think that needs to be clear that it is not simply 3 missing a number, but that there is something 4 actually where the Judges' Committee has indicated 5 you have done something clearly wrong. 6 But the sentence there is so long and 7 wordy that it doesn't really say that. Any letter 8 of reprimand for misconduct or incompetence be 9 referred by the official Judges' Committee or 10 failure, when you put "or failure", would 11 determine that to follow correct procedure and 12 appropriate supervision of the report of awards. 13 That is too much information in one sentence. 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: Steve Considine. 15 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Okay. We 16 certainly are open to rewording this to make it 17 more clear before it will come to a vote. I do 18 want to make it clear that the specific incident 19 that Lelia is pointing out is that it is like a 20 blank place. 21 To get a strike from the Shows 22 Committee, it has to be a majority vote of the 23 Shows Committee. The Committee will function as a 24 review process of strikes and recommend strikes to 25 the Board, and then the judge would look at it and 95 1 say yes, there is a strike, and then that will go 2 in the file. 3 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think we 4 are for getting this clear anyway. I thought that 5 the amendment would do it, but it didn't come out 6 quite that way. We decided that we are just 7 removing tenure, which means you still have a 8 license but you start over in the cycle of level 9 of license, or revoke the license. 10 If we want to revoke the license, which 11 some of you feel, I propose an amendment to the 12 motion where after the words "said judge", the 13 words will be "will have license revoked", and 14 then that sentence following that be struck. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: I need a second to 16 that. 17 DIRECTOR FAIRCLOTH: I second that. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Faircloth is seconding 19 that. Do we have any discussion on that? 20 Petersen. 21 DIRECTOR PETERSEN: At the very end, the 22 limitation of time said judge will have license 23 revoked, and then the rest of that paragraph is 24 struck; is that correct? 25 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: No, just the 96 1 next sentence. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Any discussion 3 on that? We are voting on the amendment, which is 4 the judge will have license revoked. All those in 5 favor will say "aye". Any opposed? There are no 6 "no" votes. Any abstentions? There are no 7 abstentions. The motion passed. 8 Gustafson, Proctor abstentions, and 9 Backus absent. We are back to the original motion 10 with the amendment. 11 Considine. 12 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: I think I 13 know the answer, but just to be clear in the 14 record, what would the implication be, because the 15 last sentence still stands there? It simply means 16 that whatever status the person's license is in 17 now, it is cancelled, but that person can be right 18 back into our TC the very next season and 19 qualified. I don't mind that. I just want to be 20 sure what we have. 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 22 Callahan. 23 DIRECTOR CALLAHAN: The wording of a 24 letter of reprimand and the letter of reprimand 25 has to be okayed by the Board, could that be 97 1 changed to a letter of concern instead of a letter 2 of reprimand? We were talking about a letter of 3 concern, which would be a little less. 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: Steve Considine. 5 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: The wording 6 "reprimand" is definitely needed because a lot of 7 the way things are put in here, like a revocation 8 or license revoked, is left currently intact in 9 the procedures about complaints. 10 The intent was that it is just the same 11 way it is in the existing rules without having to 12 change anything in the Guidebook, and it is 13 already there. 14 DIRECTOR BERRY: I still think that 15 there needs to be a clear differentiation between 16 a letter of concern and a letter of reprimand. I 17 would like someone who is able to make a motion to 18 try to put it in a sentence that a letter of 19 concern is different from a letter of reprimand. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Strickland. 21 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: In our Judges' 22 Committee report, we have several incidents of 23 complaints, and it does that. It says a letter of 24 concern. That seems to me that is what a letter 25 of concern is. 98 1 A reprimand would come from the Board; 2 is that correct? 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Steve Considine. 4 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Letters of 5 concern, again our intent is the letter of concern 6 that is now sent out gets on file someplace. That 7 is what this whole thing is about. If the Board 8 accepts the letter of concern, okay, and allows it 9 to become a strike, before a letter of concern 10 would have to become a strike, it has to go 11 through the Board. It just becomes a strike. 12 So, you know, maybe we do need to have 13 something about concerns/reprimand, if someone 14 wants to add that. 15 DIRECTOR ROWE: I am not sure it is 16 needed. It sounds like what you have described 17 would mean that a letter of concern is initiated 18 upon the initial response by the Committee to the 19 individual. 20 Then it comes before the Board, and then 21 it would assume that after the Board approves it 22 they would recognize that as a letter of 23 reprimand, and then reissue it as such. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Strickland. 25 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: Are we not getting 99 1 into the position where everybody that has a 2 complaint comes to the Board, so whether we can 3 make the decision, whether we agree with the 4 Committee? 5 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: No, I don't feel 6 you are put in that position. It is only in those 7 incidents, and I would make an offer on this 8 number, and Charlotte can correct me if I am 9 wrong. 10 We very rarely send out letters of 11 concern. I would say that 60 to 75 percent of the 12 complaints that we receive there is no letter of 13 concern sent back to the judge. There is no 14 follow-up. It is sort of like that 15 to 20 15 percent that have been slipping through the 16 cracks, that is what we are trying to address here 17 today where a letter of concern is sent. But 18 there is no Board follow-up with the letter of 19 concern. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Charlotte Sankey. 21 DIRECTOR SANKEY: What I wanted to share 22 as the Judges' Committee Chair is there are 23 complaints that do come to the Committee that 24 don't have a lot of merit to go to a hearing. Our 25 option is either it is justified or it is not 100 1 justified for a hearing. 2 We had a couple of instances this year 3 that came to us that even though the Committee 4 felt they didn't justify a hearing, they wanted to 5 make it perfectly clear to these two particular 6 judges that their action was treading the line 7 real thin. 8 In order to do that, they have said, 9 "Can't we just send a letter of reprimand?" I 10 said, "No, that cannot come from our Committee. 11 We can, however, send a letter of concern." The 12 letters that I drafted that were sent did give 13 some of the comments that the judges had 14 concerning their conduct. 15 It was just a simple note saying you 16 might want to be aware in the future of your 17 conduct. It could be the concern of the judges. 18 These letters go nowhere except to the judge, and 19 they sit on my computer. 20 I think that these are the type of 21 letters that need to be put in a judge's file. 22 That is what we are asking for today is to be able 23 to put this type of a letter in the judge's file, 24 and this is the point we are trying to get at. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell. 101 1 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I appreciate the 2 discussion, because I have some questions, and 3 some of them I think have been addressed. I am 4 still not clear. I thought if you used, maybe it 5 was not a formal Board action, but I remember the 6 discussion we would be receiving files, judge's 7 files, and it would have information on their 8 licensing, the date, et cetera, and there would be 9 the opportunity to put letters of concerns into 10 those files. 11 Maybe it is not happening, or maybe my 12 memory is not correct. That is what I was 13 recalling. As I read this, this still doesn't 14 address letters of concern. What I hear you 15 asking is either of these Committees have the 16 ability to send letters of concern, which would go 17 to the individual judges and a file copy into 18 their file, which I am assuming will be kept at 19 the office. That is a reasonable place to keep 20 it. 21 If, for example, they recommend a letter 22 of reprimand, I would think the information would 23 be brought to the Board on that, would also say we 24 have had three letters of concern filed, 25 therefore, we are requesting a letter of reprimand 102 1 to be issued to the judge. 2 So that is the way I was reading this, 3 there could be letters of concern on file, but 4 those were not Board action. But when the 5 Committee requests a letter of reprimand, that 6 would be a Board action and the Board could, you 7 know, see what background material might be there. 8 Am I not understanding that, Stephen, as 9 the intent? 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Senn. 11 DIRECTOR SENN: I guess I have a point 12 of clarification on this. My understanding of it 13 would be that once the judge and TC Committee 14 wanted to include letters of concern, that is a 15 part of the three strikes. Each one could be a 16 strike. 17 It is not three reprimands that would be 18 voted on, it could be three letters of concern 19 would come to them. Am I understanding that 20 correctly? 21 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Yes, that is it. 22 Maybe it is a bad wording in that sentence, but it 23 says contingent upon Board approval. The final 24 approval of all of this is from the Board. But 25 the Board does not approve the sending out of 103 1 letters of concern. That is the Committee. 2 What went in the draft, I think is 3 really important, because we thought we had a 4 system in place, and it is not happening. It is 5 not working This is an attempt to get a working 6 system into place. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Senn. 8 DIRECTOR SENN: The appropriate change 9 in that word from any letter of concern or 10 reprimand, would that encompass it more correctly 11 for your intent? Will you accept that as an 12 amendment? 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: The chair is willing to 14 accept that. The first sentence is any letter of 15 reprimand/concern, is that correct, Karen? 16 DIRECTOR SENN: Concern or reprimand. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: All right. That has 18 been accepted by the chair. 19 Rucker. 20 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I have a couple of 21 concerns. Looking at the Judges' Committee's 22 report this year, there were four complaints. One 23 nothing happened, two we had letters of concerns 24 being mailed; and the third, we will be hearing 25 very shortly. 104 1 So those letters of concern were coming 2 to the Board without the benefit of the judge 3 having a hearing, without the judge being able to 4 defend for lack of a better word, the self-report 5 before the Board before we vote that this would be 6 a strike. 7 That caused a little bit of concern. 8 There was an admission earlier about the 9 limitation on the misdemeanor, if you follow up 10 your record. I have a real problem that over a 11 20-year judging career that someone could lose 12 their license for minor issues. I would like to 13 amend that to accumulated within a ten-year 14 period. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is there a second to 16 the Rucker motion to amend that to a ten-year 17 period? 18 DIRECTOR LAWSON: I second it. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: The Rucker amendment, 20 which would be when three strikes are accumulated 21 in a ten-year period; is that correct? 22 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Yes. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: That has been seconded 24 by Lawson. Is there any discussion on the 25 amendment? 105 1 Campbell. 2 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Does that mean ten 3 years from the filing or ten years from the time 4 when the Board makes a decision? Are you saying 5 where is that ten years? I am not clear on that. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: For clarification, 7 Rucker. 8 DIRECTOR RUCKER: The intent would be 9 ten years between offenses. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Incidents? 11 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Incidents. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do you want to add that 13 to your motion that when three strikes are 14 accumulated -- go ahead. It is your motion. 15 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Within a ten-year 16 period of occurring. When three strikes are 17 accumulated within a ten-year period from the 18 first date of occurrence. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is that acceptable to 20 the seconder? 21 DIRECTOR LAWSON: Yes, it is. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: We are talking about 23 the amendment to the motion, which would be when 24 three strikes are accumulated within a ten-year 25 limit period from the first date of occurrence. 106 1 Is that okay? 2 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Yes. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Nixon. 4 DIRECTOR NIXON: I hesitated to say 5 anything about this. I have real concerns about 6 this. I understand the intent. It concerns me 7 that we are doing Committee work on a very far- 8 reaching subject. 9 I think the record comes from doing this 10 may really come together. I would urge you as a 11 Board to send this back to Committee and get the 12 language correct, get the intent correct, and 13 someone who has had a license for well over 30 14 years, the idea that even three letters of concern 15 in a ten-year period is a very serious thing. 16 I think maybe we are overreacting in 17 trying to take care of something that perhaps 18 requires more thinking. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Any more 20 discussion on the amendment? That is all we are 21 voting on now is the amendment to the motion which 22 is striking no limitation on time and substituting 23 with a ten-year limit period of the first date of 24 occurrence. 25 All in favor of the amendment, please 107 1 signify by saying "aye"; all opposed "no". Can I 2 have the "no" votes, please? Altheide, Burks, 3 Goddard, Faircloth, Morris, Proctor. Any 4 abstentions? No abstentions. There were five 5 "no" votes, so the motion passes to add that. 6 We are now back to the original motion 7 with all our amendments. Do you want me to read 8 it, or are you satisfied with it? The amendment 9 we just passed to the motion, plus the first 10 sentence, "Any letter of concern/" is added. 11 There is no discussion. All those in 12 favor, please say "aye"; any opposed "no". The 13 "no" votes, please. Burks, Senn, Rowe, 14 Strickland, Gustafson, Campbell. There were six 15 "no" votes. Any abstentions? Proctor. All 16 right. The motion passed. 17 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: Unless there are 18 other questions that the Board would like to ask 19 of this Committee, that is it. 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Dan Considine. 21 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: I am not 22 trying to cause trouble to you people, because I 23 know you are doing a good job. There was some 24 controversy that was particularly evident in our 25 District on an issue that does not appear here, 108 1 and that has to do with instructions given to our 2 ADGA Judges regarding paperwork supplied during 3 the show from other registries. 4 I am concerned about what the official 5 position of the Committee is on this issue, 6 instructions in discussion were given. I need to 7 know. What is coming on that issue? 8 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: I would like Pete 9 Snyder to speak to that issue. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Snyder, I think you 11 should go to your Show Committee report as a 12 referral about that. 13 DIRECTOR PHILIP SNYDER: That will be in 14 the Show Committee report. 15 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: I just wasn't 16 trying to be overly meddlesome and dealing with 17 covering everything that dealt with the two 18 Committees. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Daniel Considine. 20 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: When judges 21 are being trained, this is the type of information 22 that they get through this Committee. It is 23 important that there be a uniform position 24 presented from this Committee in the training that 25 represents the views of the Board. 109 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Steve Considine. 2 MR. STEVE CONSIDINE: The Committee 3 instructing the judges in training this year was 4 that they are not obligated to sign formal reports 5 for any other organization that they are active 6 in. One or two is the case, but they are not 7 obligated. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Does that answer your 9 question, Dan? 10 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: Yes. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bryan. 12 DIRECTOR BRYAN: As notation for this 13 motion we just passed, I am assuming you wanted it 14 on Page 106, Section G, but where exactly? 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: It is a new Item 6. 16 DIRECTOR BRYAN: Okay. Thank you. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Anything else for 18 Stephen or Julie? All right. Thank you. We have 19 got ten minutes. 20 Joan, do you want to go ahead and start 21 your report on DNA? 22 REPORT OF DNA TYPING COMMITTEE 23 DR. JOAN BOWEN: Good morning. My name 24 is Joan Bowen, the Chairman of the ADGA DNA Typing 25 Committee. You did receive your report later than 110 1 you would have liked to have it, but that was done 2 for a purpose as explained in our report, i.e., 3 this Committee was charged by the Board last year 4 with examining what DNA laboratories would be 5 available to provide services for ADGA and to 6 prepare proposals for the Board to accept the 7 services from one laboratory. 8 I did not want that discussion to take 9 place on the Internet. I do not feel that the 10 discussion of the Committee's records would be 11 appropriate to be discussed on the Internet before 12 the laboratory had the information. 13 So that is why your Committee report was 14 not sent to you until October 10th. That was a 15 purposeful decision we made. Linda Shepard and I 16 discussed it in the spring. The Committee came to 17 the solution in May, but we were told that this 18 was a benefit to you for a postal ballot, and we, 19 as the Committee Chair, participated in the e-mail 20 to the list of Directors, we would not be able to 21 answer your questions directly. 22 We felt that for this item that it be 23 brought before the Board and discussed. If it was 24 an e-mail, you would not have appropriate 25 information in a timely manner. So that 111 1 recommendation was held. 2 Does anybody have any questions about 3 the report before we give our proposal? 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bryan. 5 DIRECTOR BRYAN: I had one question 6 before this report came out, and I would like to 7 have a copy if you have one. 8 DR. BOWEN: It was e-mailed and 9 distributed by e-mail. I brought hard copies in 10 case you would need it. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: How many people need a 12 report? We need about four of them, it looks 13 like. 14 You-all have the report, I believe, now. 15 They have two proposals under decisions requiring 16 Board action. They have Proposal No. 1 on the 17 second page of the report. Any questions on that? 18 Again, Dan Considine. 19 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: Well, I see 20 that there are reasons well-stated here to make a 21 change. But I don't see a reference to whether or 22 not we have the ability to still use the data. We 23 have accumulated a lot of data. We went to a lot 24 of work on the data. 25 My question would be can we use it if we 112 1 have some issues that members need to resolve 2 regarding the data with ImmGen? Can we still 3 submit samples to resolve those issues? 4 DR. BOWEN: That is a question that we 5 have not directed to ImmGen because we had not 6 replied to them that we are no longer using their 7 services. To the best of my knowledge, we will 8 still be able to use ImmGen on those animals that 9 need to be sampled to work the trio that they have 10 already done. 11 I guess the clarification of that is we 12 have been using ImmGen for many years and samples 13 could be stored at ImmGen, and those samples could 14 be re-evaluated at some future time. When Lisa 15 Shepard and I started investigating the 16 laboratories, and we tried to answer these, we 17 discovered that not only in the past there are no 18 samples stored at ImmGen or other labs, so we 19 could not retest something at the lab. 20 So we have 991 registered goats. We 21 have DNA on 991 registered goats. Approximately 22 1,200 have been identified over time. But 300 of 23 those apparently they do not choose to register. 24 So we have DNA on 991 animals that is presented 25 from ImmGen. 113 1 If you look at the report, ImmGen is 2 using seven public domain markers, and VGL is 3 using 14, and none of those overlap. So if we 4 would like to use DNA information that we have on 5 file, there might come a time when we would have 6 to send one or two samples to ImmGen to get those 7 done there so they could be compared with what we 8 have, the information we have on file. 9 One of the things I asked Lisa for in 10 preparing for this meeting was how many times in 11 the last year did we use the type of information 12 that we had on file? If I am correct in this, 13 Lisa, correct me if I am wrong, there were 35 14 animals participating in the verification this 15 year, and eight of the records of those 35 came 16 from stored data. 17 So, approximately one in four that were 18 used in this time for the trios. We are trying to 19 be fair. One in four were stored; is that 20 correct? 21 MS. SHEPARD: Yes. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: Cassette. 23 DIRECTOR PHIL CASSETTE: Joan, if we 24 accept Proposal No. 1, what is the intent of the 25 Committee as far as distinguishing the difference 114 1 in our registry system when we look at there for 2 what is under ImmGen and what would now come under 3 the University of California at Davis? 4 DR. BOWEN: I am not sure I understand 5 your question. 6 DIRECTOR PHIL CASSETTE: If we accept 7 this and transfer over to California, and are not 8 generating it, we are now generating the actual 9 DNA information, which I am looking at the 10 registration form, it says that an animal has been 11 DNAed, DNA information there, how do I know that 12 the Committee has addressed the fact that DNA was 13 generated by ImmGen and not be able to be used 14 with another animal that is also DNAed? 15 They are coming from two different 16 sources. So I cannot assume that if I wanted a 17 child, a sire, for example, if the sire has DNA 18 and I do DNA, and it has been DNAed, but that DNA 19 is on the goat at ImmGen, and the other one done 20 at Cal, I would assume -- my assumption there is I 21 don't know any different place of sending any 22 time. 23 DR. BOWEN: I think that you are 24 forgetting one more discussion that is possible. 25 When we do the DNA typing, it is not a matter of 115 1 the continuity. You have to be able to contact 2 the lab and arrange it. 3 You have to be able to contact the ADGA 4 office. When the ADGA office prepares the 5 paperwork, they can say the samples have already 6 been done in ImmGen and they can be notified when 7 the paperwork, and determine which lab it will be 8 done, and when it will be done, and they can 9 determine what lab the sample will be sent to. 10 So there is a catch in there that would 11 catch those problems. I don't think there is any 12 need to say on the paperwork which lab the DNA 13 testing was under. 14 DIRECTOR ROWE: It might also be worth 15 noting that if we look back historically at group 16 samples from our current supplier, there have been 17 changes to the number of markers and so on. So it 18 is not as if we are moving from a particular 19 database with an equal number of markers to a 20 totally new system. 21 DR. BOWEN: I would like to further 22 elaborate on it, because Linda asked me a question 23 while we were waiting for the paper to be changed. 24 Historically, when we first started doing blood 25 typing with ImmGen, we were checking seven 116 1 markers. 2 When we went to DNA typing with ImmGen, 3 we started testing nine markers. Over a period of 4 time, there were changes in laboratory staff and 5 laboratory service, and issues they went through. 6 But at the beginning of this year, we were testing 7 seven markers. 8 That was not a choice of our 9 Association, that was the presentation of the 10 result to our Association. So over a period of 11 time, there had been changes in which markers were 12 tested, there had been changes in the number of 13 markers tested, and what Dr. Rowe was mentioning 14 is that there are times when we have had to 15 resample an animal that had been previously DNA 16 blood typed because the markers used for 17 comparison were changed between the time that it 18 was first sampled, and then the sample in the 19 presentation for another animal. 20 So this is not without precedent. We 21 have occasionally had to resample an animal 22 because of changes in laboratory methods. I 23 realize that this is a major change, consider 24 changing laboratories. 25 One of the concerns of the Board was the 117 1 quality control we were getting on laboratory test 2 results and the consistency of laboratory test 3 results, and the viability of the lab. The fact 4 that there is approximately 200,000 animals done 5 at Veterinary Genetics Laboratory, it has 6 consistently been in business for 40 years, is 7 something that the Committee considered before we 8 made this recommendation. 9 Believe me, this is something we talked 10 about for four months before we came to a 11 consensus on the Committee. Those of you who have 12 been on this Board for a long time know that I 13 have always been supportive of using one 14 laboratory. 15 When we started the blood typing and 16 DNA, the only laboratory that would provide us 17 with services was ImmGen. Over the last few 18 years, we have identified some areas of concern 19 and we are not happy with this recommendation. 20 This is something we have thought about 21 and thought about the ramifications. I guess I 22 felt more comfortable after talking with Lisa 23 Shepard and finding out we only need eight samples 24 this year as opposed to if we needed 100. 25 If we need DNA on a hundred, I would be 118 1 very nervous about recommending to this Board to 2 change laboratories. That doesn't mean if we do, 3 as Mr. Cassette commented about. If we have it 4 done by two different laboratories, what we may 5 need in negotiating this contract, would be we 6 would have to have the sample of this animal and 7 send it to ImmGen to do a trio with DNA already on 8 file. 9 Maybe we should send that sample at the 10 same time to the University of California at Davis 11 for future use, so there are those animals like 12 that that we have carryovers that will look to the 13 future, that we have DNA in a file both at Davis 14 and back at ImmGen. So I think that there are 15 solutions to the problems that we have not looked 16 at. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Anything else? 18 Korhonen. 19 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: What is the 20 economics now of splitting the samples, one to 21 ImmGen and one to the University of California at 22 Davis? 23 DR. BOWEN: There would be no benefit to 24 it. We would actually have to pay the processing 25 price at both labs. I think that is something we 119 1 could ask the members if they are interested in 2 doing it. 3 The reason I say that is one of the 4 things we talked about when we were in the early 5 contracting information with both of the lab 6 reports was, would there be a decrease in price to 7 retest the animals at Davis that had already been 8 done at ImmGen? 9 It was made very clear to us that it was 10 no, no change in price. There is an advantage. 11 If a person using the animal that has already been 12 DNA tested at ImmGen, and they are using the 13 certification trio, if they submit the sire, dam 14 and the offspring at the same time, then the 15 offspring is $27 and the sire and the dam are $18. 16 So we can get a reduction in price when those are 17 presented at one time as a trio. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Any follow-up? 19 Korhonen. 20 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Yes, please. I am 21 not sure I understand. I have a record at ImmGen. 22 I am not sure whether he or his neighbor's escaped 23 and bred one of my goats. I have a real problem 24 coming up here in a couple of months. 25 What is the implication of my present 120 1 case to this proposal? 2 DR. BOWEN: Is the sample on record? 3 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: The dam and one of 4 the bucks. 5 DR. BOWEN: And the dam and one of the 6 bucks at ImmGen. Is the potential sire available? 7 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Today they are, yes. 8 DR. BOWEN: Okay. In the spring, when 9 the offspring is born, you would have the 10 opportunity of rerunning the sire, who is already 11 on record, rerunning the dam, who is already on 12 record, and running all the offsprings at GVL, if 13 we accept the GVL contract, or you can run all the 14 offsprings at ImmGen under their DNA typing. That 15 is what we are hoping for. You could run them 16 there. 17 The thing for you to think about is, are 18 you going to use those animals in any type of 19 testing again? If you want to know who simply is 20 the sire of this kid, I don't care about any other 21 information, that would still be available to you. 22 You would run the offspring at ImmGen and any 23 other sires that needed to be tested. You have to 24 test all potential sires. 25 If you are in a forward-thinking mode, 121 1 thinking wow, I have got some super buck kid that 2 was born in this litter, and I am going to keep 3 him forever as an outstanding buck, you might 4 consider running it at both laboratories. 5 You have historical data that you could 6 use historically from ImmGen and in addition you 7 could use the data that you have at VGL in the 8 future. Your question is still answerable. It is 9 a decision for you as to how you answer it. 10 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: $54 for the DNA at 11 Davis and start over again? 12 DR. BOWEN: Right. 13 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Thank you. 14 DR. BOWEN: What I would like to 15 emphasize is the fact that we are not running 16 thousands of samples a year. 17 DIRECTOR ROWE: I think as with any 18 change of laboratory or computer system, or 19 whatever, there will be an additional period, and 20 that is going to happen whether that is a separate 21 issue from evaluating where we want to go in the 22 future with our DNA testing, and what kind of 23 reliability and longevity we need to consider on 24 it as a registry. 25 I think there is one sort of forward- 122 1 thinking factor to evaluate the comparison of 2 laboratories as well. The past week I would 3 comment, and that would be in the choice of 4 markers and participation in international 5 standardization, in that I believe that the 6 proposed laboratory's certificates in the 7 International Society of Animals, comparison 8 testing with international laboratories, and these 9 markers used, I think, probably markers used 10 internationally. They both use those markers. 11 But for some comparison of laboratories, 12 maybe Joe or Lisa can research it. 13 DR. BOWEN: Let me comment that both 14 laboratories participate in the ISAG. That 15 doesn't mean they have to use the same markers to 16 achieve the same goals. ISAG is a type governing 17 body that checks laboratories to make sure they 18 are performing in a routine and regular manner. 19 If you sent samples to two labs, would 20 you get the same type of results? That doesn't 21 mean that those two labs have to use the same way 22 to get the answer. So both labs are members of 23 ISAG, and both labs use ISAG testing methods, but 24 a few labs use the same markers. 25 So that, to me, is important that you 123 1 know that it is not like one lab is better than 2 the other because one uses X and one uses Y. It 3 is a matter they reach the same results, but they 4 make it there by different routes. This is not an 5 easy discussion, or it is not easily answered. 6 I just want you to realize that we are 7 not the only Association who is facing these 8 issues and that we don't realize it. We have 9 several people who want to speak to it. 10 MS. LISA SHEPARD: They did not 11 participate in the last study period, but they did 12 consider the resources necessary. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Hendrickson. 14 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: They did do the 15 original samples, or whatever. Does this 16 laboratory intend to preserve those or not? I 17 mean, I think that would be a big plus in their 18 favor. I think that should be clarified. 19 DR. BOWEN: I have three pages of 20 comparisons between the two labs. To make it easy 21 for you, under the section on sample storage, 22 under ImmGen, this says it does not make it 23 available for any other laboratory use, and all 24 testing is destroyed after testing a month. 25 We have been led to believe in our 124 1 earlier arrangement with Dr. Caldwell they would 2 be stored. We only recently found they were not. 3 Under the VGL, it says all samples are stored for 4 a minimum of ten years. 5 Then as far as how long they are 6 retained after that, if it is still in force, they 7 will be remaining as long as the contract is in 8 force, depending on what the client, i.e., ADGA 9 wants to do. 10 If we want to have ten-year-old samples 11 destroyed, we can do that. If we want them 12 maintained, we can have them maintained as long as 13 our contract is in force. As far as the data 14 information is concerned, both laboratories, DNA 15 typing data that results from the examination of 16 samples is the property of the Association, i.e., 17 ADGA, and it is not the property of the owner. 18 That has been very clear from the very 19 first day we started blood typing samples. The 20 samples once submitted to the laboratory are the 21 property of the lab. In our contract, we can 22 control how we handle it. But the information 23 obtained, that is the property of ADGA. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bryan. 25 DIRECTOR BRYAN: Again, I just need some 125 1 clarification on the numbers you just gave us just 2 now, which was 1,200 plus animals have been 3 tested. 4 DR. BOWEN: Approximately 1,200. The 5 reason I say that way is I have never gotten the 6 staff figures. It is difficult to track down the 7 animals that have not been registered and say this 8 animal wasn't registered, and that animal wasn't 9 registered. But approximately 1,200 samples have 10 been processed, and 991 are registered. 11 DIRECTOR BRYAN: That is from when we 12 started? 13 DR. BOWEN: January 1st, 1990. 14 DIRECTOR BRYAN: We had assumed that we 15 would do a minimum of 150 animals per year? 16 DR. BOWEN: That is correct, and we have 17 never lived up to that number. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Backus. 19 DIRECTOR BACKUS? I have a question 20 here. I am jumping back a bit. The question, 21 there was a situation where if the sample -- will 22 the samples be retained or may we arrange to have 23 the samples retained in ImmGen if we did not renew 24 the current contract? That was one of the 25 conditions that I don't think you explained to us. 126 1 DR. BOWEN: That is because we have not 2 talked to ImmGen very much about what would happen 3 if we didn't renew the contract with them. We 4 have an excellent working relationship with them. 5 We have been with them for approximately 15 and a 6 half years. 7 We were able to get more information 8 from Veterinary Genetics Laboratories on what is 9 to their advantage to answer our questions, and 10 given the contract, there have been numerous 11 changes in ImmGen over the last three or four 12 years. 13 So, we did not push too hard. They did 14 not keep our samples previously, and so we thought 15 they were keeping them. It may be more of a 16 problem with sample storage with them. The 17 information they provided for us to compare with 18 the VGL said their samples are stored at the DNA 19 lab. So my guess is their answer is no, but that 20 is only a guess. 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Lisa Shepard. 22 MS. LISA SHEPARD: In communications 23 with ImmGen about that, they would store samples 24 for an additional two dollars for a ten-year 25 period. 127 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Lawson. 2 DIRECTOR LAWSON: Did you have to sign a 3 contract with ImmGen that specified they would 4 store those samples? 5 DR. BOWEN: What you don't know, because 6 you were not a Board member back then, when we 7 first started in 1990, I went to several different 8 laboratories seeking services, and the only 9 laboratory that was willing to talk to us was 10 ImmGen. 11 So, we had a one-year contract that year 12 that we signed with Jerry Caldwell -- he died 13 recently, about two years ago -- and ever since 14 then it has been a verbal agreement. We don't 15 have a signed contract. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: We are ready for 17 Proposal No. 1 that requires Board action. Any 18 other discussion? 19 Campbell. 20 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I would just ask 21 Joan does our contract currently with ImmGen 22 specify the storage of the samples? Is the answer 23 no? 24 DR. BOWEN: We don't have a contract. 25 It is a verbal agreement. 128 1 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: So, I am thinking in 2 the process of accepting this one, we could still, 3 as she mentioned, we could still talk to them and 4 working with ImmGen on using the earlier 5 information and continuing with information on 6 DNA. That is still a very vital possibility. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: Are we comfortable 8 voting on Proposal No. 1? 9 Gustafson. 10 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: Does it require a 11 certain number of samples to be submitted each 12 year or not? 13 DR. BOWEN: The laboratory requires a 14 minimum number. This is changing data from the 15 policy when we first approached them in 1990. So 16 they have changed that approach and in the process 17 all they gave Lisa Shepard and I, there were no 18 minimum numbers. 19 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: The second part of 20 this question, if we go with Davis, if the Board 21 would do that, having worked with ImmGen, what 22 would be the chance of them saying you left us, 23 you are on your own? 24 DR. BOWEN: ImmGen is a family-run 25 corporation, and they have been very good in the 129 1 past. I think the reason we are so concerned 2 about changing laboratories is the change that 3 occurred in ImmGen in itself over the last several 4 years. 5 In the proposal they sent to us, one of 6 the items that Ms. Shepard asked them to provide 7 was the number of samples processed for the year, 8 and ImmGen's workload has suddenly decreased. 9 Their estimate for 2004 was 10,000 animals, and in 10 2005 about 5,000. 11 I think that that is a concern of our 12 Committee is that if we have another year with 13 ImmGen, will they be in business at the end of the 14 year? We don't know. That is a major concern of 15 the Committee. I think that they are great, 16 though. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: On the question is 18 Lawson. 19 DIRECTOR LAWSON: Do you have any idea 20 what you are going to do if they do go out of 21 business? Do they have material that belongs to 22 us now? 23 DR. BOWEN: No, they do not. We have 24 the DNA testing records on the animals in the 25 office, and Lisa Shepard has worked very hard the 130 1 last year to organize and track down and get that 2 information. So if ImmGen went under yesterday, 3 we have not lost anything. 4 DIRECTOR DANIEL CONSIDINE: I call for 5 the question. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: The question has been 7 called for. We are voting on Proposal No. 1, 8 which requires Board action, which basically is we 9 are going to switch from ImmGen to Davis to do our 10 DNA testing. All those in favor, please say 11 "aye"; all those opposed "no". Any abstentions? 12 Rowe is abstaining. The motion carried. 13 You have Proposal No. 2 in front of you. 14 DIRECTOR BITTER: I call for the 15 question already. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Bitter has called 17 for the question already. Any point of 18 clarifications on that? Since he has called for 19 the question, all those in favor of Proposal No. 20 2, please signify by saying "aye"; any opposed? 21 There are no "no" votes. Any abstentions? There 22 are no abstentions. The motion carried. 23 She needs to give the report of the ADGA 24 Research Foundation, and then we will break for 25 lunch. 131 1 DR. BOWEN: This is the third proposal, 2 which she informed me that was not a proposal that 3 needed Board action, and we should just present 4 that to the Awards Committee. I was unaware of 5 that. 6 DIRECTOR BITTER: How about the third? 7 DR. BOWEN: I gave my Committee 8 direction to work appropriately. 9 ADGA RESEARCH FOUNDATION REPORT 10 DR. BOWEN: Moving along, you have in 11 front of you the year-end report from the American 12 Dairy Goat Association Research Foundation. 13 Basically, it states that the trustees for the 14 year were myself, Daniel Considine, Dr. George 15 Haenlein, Dr. Joan Dean Rowe and Dr. Mary Smith. 16 We tried really hard to have elections 17 this year. I want you to know that the people are 18 very uncomfortable to work with because I tried to 19 hold an election for officers and nobody would do 20 anything. So, you are stuck with me until you can 21 entice one of these people to take office. 22 Currently, Shirley McKenzie, who is the 23 Association Manager, is providing us with the 24 financial information because none of them will 25 step forward and be Treasurer, either. So talk to 132 1 your members. 2 We did not receive any new proposals for 3 sponsored research this year. I had several phone 4 calls from one organization seeking funding, but 5 we talked to them about the animals they wanted to 6 use in the research project and they did not meet 7 ADGA's breed standards. 8 They were proposing to do nutrition 9 research using Alpines, 150 pounds. I called them 10 and asked did I do the math correctly? They said 11 yes, 55-kilogram dose. I said, "Are these 12 yearlings?" They said, "No, these are adult 13 Alpine goats." 14 I explained to them if they checked 15 their Guidebook for ADGA standards for Alpines, it 16 is not allowed to be an animal that small. I told 17 them we would be more interested in providing 18 funds for nutritional research if they were using 19 goats comparable to the guidelines of the American 20 Dairy Goat Association. 21 As it stands now, the Research 22 Foundation has $22,349.24 in a CD that renews 23 annually, and $7,131.75 in a checking account. We 24 would really like your help in identifying 25 research that needs to be done. 133 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Are there any questions 2 for Joan? Thank you very much. Okay. We are 3 running a little behind. It is 12:21 by my watch. 4 We will go ahead and break for our one-hour lunch, 5 which is in Osage A, I believe. 6 It was agreed upon that the hearing that 7 was necessary will start an hour from now, so it 8 will be 1:20. 9 (Whereupon, the meeting recessed at 10 12:25 o'clock p.m., to reconvene at 1:30 o'clock 11 p.m.) 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: If the Directors will 13 go ahead and take their seats, we will get started 14 with the topic on the agenda. Before we start, I 15 want to recognize Annabelle Thomas. She is our 16 newly-elected rep. She is definitely a nice young 17 lady. She is in nursing school. 18 MS. THOMAS: Good afternoon, ladies and 19 gentlemen, and the Board of Directors. As stated, 20 my name is Annabelle Thomas and I am from Bucklin, 21 Missouri. That is three hours northeast of here. 22 I am attending Missouri Western State University 23 in St. Joseph, which is 45 minutes from here. So, 24 it is quite a nice drive to get down quickly and 25 efficiently. 134 1 I look forward to representing the youth 2 this year and hope that I can give 110 percent as 3 I would have wanted to do when I was in this 4 position. I raise a herd of Alpines and I have 5 been raising them for about 14 years now. I would 6 appreciate your kindness and hope I will represent 7 everyone well. Thank you. (Applause) 8 HEARING OF THE COMPLAINT AGAINST NOAH GODDARD 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Now, on to the 10 business. We have a hearing on the complaint 11 filed against Noah Goddard. I will go ahead and 12 read that complaint into the minutes, and then 13 there will be a time for those who have signed the 14 complaint, three people here that would like to 15 make a statement to the Board, then we will hear 16 from Noah Goddard and his attorney. We have our 17 attorney here for us also. 18 The complaint is dated October 29, 2004. 19 On October 21, 2004, it was observed that the Web 20 site of www.dairygoatcheckregister.com was in 21 operation. This site was linked to the 22 district5news@yahoo.com list owned and moderated 23 by Noah Goddard. 24 This Web site contained numerous items 25 of financial information about the American Dairy 135 1 Goat Association. This information included 2 credit card numbers, bank account numbers, safety 3 deposit box numbers and federal and state tax I.D. 4 numbers. 5 The undersigned determined that the 6 information on the site was published by Director 7 Noah Goddard, Membership No. 146795, and was 8 placed on the site in spite of a confidentiality 9 statement that was on the front page. 10 We, the undersigned, feel that the 11 release of this information has placed the 12 American Dairy Goat Association in financial and 13 corporate peril as well as liability. It is also 14 commented that the conduct is detrimental to the 15 Association as stated in Article IV, Section 7, of 16 the ADGA Constitution. 17 The direction of the complaint is until 18 such time the complaint is determined, that Noah 19 Goddard not receive any active financial 20 information, that he be rescinded from the Board, 21 and that he be held responsible for anything that 22 occurs to the employees in disregard and lack of 23 remorse for confidential information. He was 24 instructed about that. 25 That is the complaint that you will 136 1 receive. You voted for it in the postal ballots 2 this morning. If Bonnie, Sheila and Lelia would 3 like to talk and make a statement, you may. 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I would like to 5 surrender the floor to Mr. Tofle. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: Marvin Tofle. 7 MR. TOFLE: Yes, thank you. Well, just 8 for the record, I would like to renew my objection 9 that I made to this position that was made 10 previously. At this time, I would like to ask 11 that the people who signed the complaint, who are 12 Directors, that they have a conflict of interest 13 in this case, and if they are giving evidence or 14 talking about it, then they should not be able to 15 sit as a Director and also judge the case. 16 I don't think they should be a witness 17 and the prosecutor and the judge and the jury in 18 the case. I would ask that those who are 19 witnesses step outside until they actually give 20 their testimony. 21 I also would ask regarding Mr. Considine 22 and Ms. Saum and Ms. Campbell, that they have a 23 conflict because they are the people who were at 24 the original Board meeting that made the 25 allegations. 137 1 So they are kind of sort of witnesses 2 whether or not they speak today or not. They made 3 the additional allegation. I don't think they 4 should be prosecutors and witnesses, judge and 5 jury, in the same case. They have a conflict of 6 interest there also. I wanted to raise those 7 issues. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. I have heard 9 several requests from you, Mr. Tofle, one of which 10 is anybody who would be giving information would 11 be asked to leave the room. 12 MR. TOFLE: Yes, sir. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: I don't think we 14 provide for that in our Constitution or Bylaws. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: I don't think we can 17 grant that request at this point unless the Board 18 would like to make a motion to that effect. 19 Hearing none, the second thing, the other thing 20 you were asking was that Board members who 21 actually signed the complaint would not be voting. 22 MR. TOFLE: Yes, not participating in 23 the deliberations and not vote. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mrs. Kempe is the only 25 one who would be a voting Board member that is 138 1 here. She has abstained from the other vote. 2 MR. TOFLE: With regard to the 3 officers -- 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: They don't vote. 5 MR. TOFLE: They are participating in 6 it. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: We can't ask them not 8 to participate. That is their right as Directors 9 Emeriti. 10 MR. TOFLE: That is the point of my 11 objection. You can't be a witness and 12 complainant, and then decide your own complaint. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: They will not be 14 deciding it. They have no vote. I believe Ms. 15 Kempe has already said she will not be voting. 16 DIRECTOR NIXON: I will recuse myself 17 from deliberations after I have given my 18 testimony. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Berry. 20 DIRECTOR BERRY: I will do the same. 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Is that 22 everything, Mr. Tofle? 23 MR. TOFLE: In regard to Mr. Considine 24 and Mr. Cassette and Ms. Campbell? 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: They are not a part of 139 1 the complaint. 2 MR. TOFLE: Well, they are the ones who 3 made the initial allegation at the Board meeting 4 over a year ago that started this. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: They provided the 6 information. They did not make any allegations. 7 The allegations were made by those who filed the 8 complaint, not the Executive Committee. 9 MR. TOFLE: Well, whatever you call it, 10 they are the ones that said the things that put 11 this into motion and now they are called upon to 12 judge those things. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Your objection is duly 14 noted. Are we done? 15 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do you have an order as 17 to who is going first? 18 DIRECTOR BERRY: I am going first. 19 My name is Lelia Berry. In October, 20 2004, at the Annual Meeting in Albuquerque, I 21 signed a complaint brought by a group of ADGA 22 members against Noah Goddard. 23 The complaint against Mr. Goddard was 24 specifically because he chose to post to a public 25 Web site on the Internet information that he had 140 1 received in his capacity as an ADGA Director. I 2 signed this complaint for two reasons, one as a 3 Director Emeritus and Past President of the 4 Association, and one as an ADGA employee. 5 As an Emeritus Director and Past 6 President of the Association, I feel that persons 7 trusted with information that could potentially 8 bring harm to the Association, who knowingly make 9 this information available to the general public 10 are guilty of conduct that is detrimental to the 11 Association. 12 The document that I was given, that is a 13 duplicate of what Mr. Goddard received, contains 14 account numbers for various entities that ADGA 15 does business with. The potential for a person 16 using these accounts or even selling the account 17 numbers is real and all of these accounts had to 18 be changed. The posting to a public Web site is, 19 in my opinion, inexcusable. 20 I became aware of this Web site at the 21 meeting last year when the Executive Committee 22 asked me to surrender my ADGA credit card. They 23 informed me that the card had to be cancelled and 24 destroyed because the number had been made public 25 on Mr. Goddard's Web site. 141 1 Upon my own examination of the 2 information, I found my partial credit card 3 number, along with my name, in the 2003 check 4 register on Page 13. I compared this to the card 5 before returning the card to the Executive 6 Committee. 7 This brings me to my second reason for 8 signing the complaint. I feel that Mr. Goddard's 9 behavior put me at personal risk. Anyone 10 obtaining this information could have used this 11 name and account number to do financial damage to 12 me personally. 13 If unauthorized use had occurred on this 14 card, I would have been personally held 15 responsible. At the very least, it could have 16 called my integrity into question. I don't think 17 it is beyond reason to extrapolate the possibility 18 that my identity could have been stolen using the 19 information. 20 MR. TOFLE: May I cross-examine her? 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Yes, Mr. Tofle, you may 22 ask your questions. 23 MR. TOFLE: Ms. Berry -- 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: She is going to sit in 25 her seat and answer your questions. 142 1 MR. TOFLE: Ms. Berry, when you signed 2 this complaint at the Annual Meeting, had you ever 3 seen the 2003 check register? 4 You saw it before you signed it? 5 DIRECTOR BERRY: I saw this document 6 when I was told the information had been sent to 7 Noah Goddard. 8 MR. TOFLE: Before you signed the 9 complaint? 10 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes, yes. 11 MR. TOFLE: All right. And my 12 understanding was that you indicate that the Web 13 site contained the 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004 check 14 registers? 15 DIRECTOR BERRY: It contained from, yes, 16 2000, yes. 17 MR. TOFLE: Well, let's be specific on 18 that. 19 DIRECTOR BERRY: I did not say it was on 20 the Web site. I said it was in this packet of 21 information that I looked at. 22 MR. TOFLE: I see. And you know now 23 that it wasn't on the Web site; isn't that true? 24 DIRECTOR BERRY: I did not see the Web 25 site. 143 1 MR. TOFLE: So to this day, you don't 2 know what was on the Web site; is that correct? 3 DIRECTOR BERRY: I believe the people 4 who told me what was on the Web site. 5 MR. TOFLE: Who told you what was on the 6 Web site? 7 DIRECTOR BERRY: I can't identify the 8 people because -- 9 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 10 DIRECTOR BERRY: -- there were many 11 people who had seen the Web site that said that 12 this information was in there, and these were 13 people that I trusted to give me accurate 14 information. 15 MR. TOFLE: At the 2004 Annual Meeting, 16 didn't you specifically ask Mr. Cassette if your 17 full name and full credit card number was 18 contained on the Web site? 19 DIRECTOR BERRY: I did. 20 MR. TOFLE: He indicated to you that it 21 was; isn't that correct? 22 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 23 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And that information 24 was incorrect, wasn't it? 25 DIRECTOR BERRY: I don't know. 144 1 MR. TOFLE: To this day, you don't know? 2 DIRECTOR BERRY: Well, in observing what 3 was on here, there is a place where my entire 4 credit card number is. It was the year 2002. I 5 didn't know precisely what was on the Web site, 6 but it was a possibility that all of it could have 7 been on the Web site. So, I don't know that it 8 was, but I don't know that it wasn't. 9 MR. TOFLE: Well, there is a possibility 10 that a lot of it could be there but, in fact, it 11 wasn't there, was it? 12 DIRECTOR BERRY: I don't know. 13 MR. TOFLE: To this day you don't know? 14 DIRECTOR BERRY: I don't know. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. But doesn't it seem 16 that if you are coming here today and presenting 17 evidence you should know? 18 DIRECTOR BERRY: That isn't the basis of 19 my entire signing of the complaint. If you will 20 note in what I said, there were things that were 21 in what I am alleging. That is only part of it. 22 It wasn't based only on that. 23 MR. TOFLE: What else is it based on? 24 DIRECTOR BERRY: You just heard my 25 statement. 145 1 MR. TOFLE: Well, okay. Somewhere in 2 your statement are other reasons? 3 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 4 MR. TOFLE: Did you personally write 5 this complaint? 6 DIRECTOR BERRY: No, I did not. 7 MR. TOFLE: And do you know who wrote 8 it? 9 DIRECTOR BERRY: No, I do not. 10 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is that all, Mr. Tofle? 12 MR. TOFLE: No, ma'am. Did someone ask 13 you to sign the complaint? 14 DIRECTOR BERRY: No, they did not. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Well, how is it that 16 you found out about the complaint and ended up 17 writing it? 18 DIRECTOR BERRY: Well, a group of us 19 were talking and discussing whether we wanted to 20 do this. 21 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 22 DIRECTOR BERRY: And I said that if a 23 complaint were written, and I agreed with what was 24 written, I would like to sign it because I felt 25 that my personal information as well as my 146 1 responsibilities as a Director were compromised. 2 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And so who wrote the 3 complaint? 4 DIRECTOR BERRY: As I just said, I don't 5 know. 6 MR. TOFLE: Who gave it to you to sign? 7 DIRECTOR BERRY: There were a group of 8 us and we were all examining the document before 9 we signed it, and I asked if I could sign it as 10 well. 11 MR. TOFLE: Who was in the group? 12 DIRECTOR BERRY: Who was in the group? 13 Well, there was Sheila and Bonnie and I, and I 14 believe Donna Anderson. I am not sure who else 15 was in the group at that time. Those are the 16 people that I did discuss this with before I 17 signed it. 18 MR. TOFLE: All right. And you were at 19 the meeting and you heard what Mr. Cassette said 20 and Mr. Considine and Ms. Campbell said, correct? 21 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 22 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did you rely on what 23 they said when you signed the complaint? 24 DIRECTOR BERRY: No, I looked at what 25 was on here. I looked at the entire document and 147 1 I did find my complete account number in the 2002 2 check register. It was unclear to me, and it was 3 no one's fault that it was unclear to me, that 4 that had not been published on the Web site. So I 5 bear responsibility for saying that my entire 6 number was here, because I thought maybe it was. 7 MR. TOFLE: Did you think that complete 8 safety deposit box numbers were listed on the Web 9 site? 10 DIRECTOR BERRY: I wasn't privy to which 11 of the account numbers were the safety deposit 12 box. 13 MR. TOFLE: You didn't know whether 14 there were safety deposit numbers on the Web site 15 or not? 16 DIRECTOR BERRY: There were -- the pages 17 that I examined, there were numbers that said 18 account numbers for Pitney Bowes, is one I 19 remember off the top of my head, that Pitney 20 Bowes' account number was there in its entirety. 21 MR. TOFLE: Yes. All right. What about 22 the federal and state I.D. tax numbers, did you 23 know there were complete federal and state I.D. 24 numbers contained on the Web site or not? 25 DIRECTOR BERRY: I do not know. 148 1 MR. TOFLE: You don't know to this day? 2 DIRECTOR BERRY: No. 3 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, did you 4 personally sustain any damage as a result of this? 5 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. I was harassed on 6 the Internet by people whom I had never met and 7 did not know, making accusations against me that I 8 had done something wrong, and I found that 9 extremely offensive. 10 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 11 DIRECTOR BERRY: So it did damage my 12 reputation. 13 MR. TOFLE: All right. So, there was 14 some debate on the Internet whether or not your 15 complaint was properly made? 16 DIRECTOR BERRY: Correct. 17 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And it turns out that 18 when you signed the complaint, you didn't know 19 exactly what was actually published on the 20 Internet; isn't that correct? 21 DIRECTOR BERRY: I accepted the 22 information that I received from people that I 23 trusted. 24 MR. TOFLE: Right, but you personally 25 didn't know? 149 1 DIRECTOR BERRY: I had not viewed the 2 Web site personally. 3 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did you suffer any 4 financial harm? 5 DIRECTOR BERRY: I don't know. Not to 6 my knowledge. 7 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did anyone suffer any 8 financial loss as a result of the check register 9 being posted on the Internet? 10 DIRECTOR BERRY: I don't know. 11 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is that all now, Mr. 13 Tofle? 14 MR. TOFLE: Let me check my notes. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: I see that people are 16 antsy. I know that Robert's Rules of Order are in 17 charge, but we need to allow for everything to be 18 asked and answered so that each side can feel they 19 have a full hearing. That is on the advice of our 20 attorney, so be patient. 21 MR. TOFLE: In your complaint, you also 22 mentioned the bank account numbers were listed on 23 the check register, correct? 24 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 25 MR. TOFLE: Okay. You are not claiming 150 1 that those are secret confidential numbers, are 2 you? 3 DIRECTOR BERRY: Bank account numbers? 4 MR. TOFLE: Yes, ma'am. 5 DIRECTOR BERRY: My impression is that 6 account numbers from whatever source can be used 7 to build information that compromises an 8 individual or a business. So, I am not a business 9 person and I would assume that that kind of 10 information could possibly be used in a nefarious 11 way. 12 MR. TOFLE: You know that your bank 13 publishes your bank account number on the front of 14 every check you have; do you understand that? 15 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 16 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, in your 17 complaint, you state that Mr. Goddard has shown 18 total disregard for ADGA in leaking the 19 confidential information he was entrusted with. 20 What do you base that on? 21 DIRECTOR BERRY: Mr. Goddard, following 22 the publication on the Web site and the 23 information at the last Annual Meeting, did not 24 express remorse either to the Board or to me for 25 compromising the information. 151 1 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Is that the only 2 reason you say that? That's your sole basis of 3 saying that he lacked remorse and shows a total 4 disregard, is that what you base it on? 5 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Do you think he 7 posted the cash register, that hurt ADGA? 8 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 9 MR. TOFLE: I see. In your complaint, 10 you say Noah Goddard should be responsible for all 11 legal and business expenses associated with the 12 remedy of this matter incurred by ADGA, its 13 members and employees. 14 Do you know what expenses have been 15 incurred by ADGA, its employees or members? 16 DIRECTOR BERRY: I don't personally know 17 that, no. 18 MR. TOFLE: In your complaint, you say 19 he should be suspended as a Director, correct? 20 DIRECTOR BERRY: Correct. 21 MR. TOFLE: And when you wrote that, how 22 long did you think he should be suspended for? 23 DIRECTOR BERRY: You are asking me my 24 personal opinion? 25 MR. TOFLE: I am asking when you wrote 152 1 it, how long did you think he should be suspended? 2 DIRECTOR BERRY: Permanently. 3 MR. TOFLE: Permanently? 4 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 5 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, there is a 6 provision in the Constitution and Bylaws for a 7 person to be expelled; you didn't say that. 8 DIRECTOR BERRY: I am sorry. I didn't 9 hear you. 10 MR. TOFLE: You didn't ask that he be 11 expelled as is provided in the Constitution and 12 Bylaws? 13 DIRECTOR BERRY: In the complaint, I did 14 not. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, when you wrote 16 this complaint -- 17 DIRECTOR BERRY: I didn't write the 18 complaint. 19 MR. TOFLE: I am sorry. When you signed 20 the complaint, you had had a misimpression about 21 what was actually contained on the Web site; would 22 that be a fair statement? 23 DIRECTOR BERRY: I said I had not 24 clarified entirely the information, but I didn't 25 have a misimpression, I had a shortage of 153 1 information. 2 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle, can we 4 stipulate at this point that we only have 2003 on 5 there? I think that was pretty clear to everybody 6 at this point. 7 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle, are you 9 finished? 10 MR. TOFLE: Yes, with respect to Ms. 11 Berry. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Anybody else? 13 MR. TOFLE: I would like to ask other 14 people about that. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: I think we are clear 16 that it was 2003 that was on the Web site. Is 17 there anybody who has an objection, that that is 18 the only thing on the Web site? Okay. 19 MR. TOFLE: You personally had no 20 financial harm, correct? 21 DIRECTOR BERRY: No. 22 MR. TOFLE: And you are complaining 23 about it for ADGA? 24 DIRECTOR BERRY: I am complaining on 25 behalf of myself as an employee. I work for the 154 1 Association as an appraiser and I had to give up 2 the credit card I was issued to pay the expenses 3 for that. It had to be reissued. 4 MR. TOFLE: And you got another credit 5 card? 6 DIRECTOR BERRY: Yes. 7 MR. TOFLE: Okay. I don't have any 8 further questions. Thank you. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 10 Sheila, would you like to come up next? 11 DIRECTOR NIXON: I am Sheila Nixon from 12 California. I signed this complaint as a member 13 of ADGA. I received an e-mail posting from Noah 14 Goddard to a District V list that was addressed to 15 members of District V. It was posted on Thursday, 16 October 21st, 2004, at 7:13 p.m. on the Internet. 17 The subject line was "Check Register". 18 The e-mail directed people to 19 www.dairygoatcheckregister.com. It indicated that 20 2003 checks written by ADGA were posted on the 21 site and requested input on printing the budget 22 and comments regarding the list of checks, or 23 input was requested from anyone reading the list. 24 It was not restricted to ADGA members. 25 The posting was approximately 14 pages of dates, 155 1 check numbers, recipients, the amount of the 2 check, the purpose of the check and in some 3 instances account numbers. 4 Page 1 had a nondisclosure stamp with a 5 very clear directive for use and confidentiality 6 of this document and information. Director 7 Goddard has very clearly accepted ownership of 8 receiving these documents and having it posted on 9 the worldwide Web for all to see and read. 10 In my opinion, the posting of this 11 sensitive information was conduct detrimental to 12 the Association for the following reasons: 13 Number one, timing. It was posted on 14 Thursday evening prior to the Saturday opening of 15 the Annual Meeting. The Board was to meet on 16 Wednesday and Thursday. However, most ADGA 17 Directors were away from their computers as they 18 were already on their way to the Annual Meeting. 19 Number two, most Directors became aware 20 and saw the Web site after arriving at the 21 meeting. I saw the Web site on my home computer. 22 I printed four or five pages, and basically said I 23 really do not need this stuff, and stopped 24 printing it. 25 Number three, at a time when 156 1 preparations and organizational work to be 2 conducted by the Association, it normally is 3 completed, the officers and Association Manager 4 were forced to set aside their Annual Meeting 5 duties in order to take care of the emergency at 6 hand, which was protecting the Association and the 7 membership from harm. 8 Subsequently, when you lose a wallet or 9 have a credit card stolen, you must take emergency 10 action to stop action on those accounts. 11 Therefore, it turned to ADGA to fix the problem, 12 one; close the account, two; cancel credit cards, 13 three; seeking legal advice, four; securing the 14 closure of the Web site to the public, which was 15 still open to the public four days after agreement 16 was made with Director Goddard to take it down. 17 Five, salvaging the Annual Meeting 18 without compromising the Association and/or 19 Director Goddard's rights to due process. 20 At the time the Board of Directors' 21 meeting opened on Wednesday, despite the agreement 22 with Director Goddard to take it down immediately 23 (a) the Web site was still accessible; and (b) the 24 cover sheet was still available to anyone; and (c) 25 the Association Manager and the EC were uncertain 157 1 as to, one, when and how we would be able to pay 2 ADGA at the Annual Meeting expense checks. 3 Two, how and when the Directors would 4 receive their stipend. 5 Three, when and how the cancelled 6 accounts and credit cards would be re-established 7 so the Association could conduct normal business 8 matters. 9 (d), a cloud of chaos, uncertainty, 10 uneasiness and confusion hung over the opening of 11 the 2004 Board meeting. It existed over both the 12 Board and the membership in attendance. We are 13 all aware that new accounts can be opened, credit 14 cards replaced and arrangements made to pay our 15 bills in other ways. 16 However, the time and energy spent 17 resolving this kind of action can never be 18 regained. The implied distrust of the fiscal 19 integrity of the Board of Directors and ADGA 20 leadership does untold damage to the Association. 21 One year later we are still healing with 22 a division and distrust among the membership 23 created by a member of our own Board of Directors, 24 deliberately refusing to follow the ADGA 25 nondisclosure statement of sensitive documents. 158 1 The said pertained to the financial health of the 2 Association. 3 In conclusion, I believe the timing of 4 the posting of this information and the disclosure 5 of this ADGA information to ADGA members was a 6 deliberate attempt to alienate the membership, 7 disrupt the work of the Executive Committee and 8 the Board of Directors, and to remove the focus 9 from conducting the business of the Association in 10 its 2004 Annual Meeting. 11 I feel that Director Goddard's conduct 12 was detrimental to the Association, both present 13 and the past. I do have a copy of the e-mail with 14 the subject and the Web site with me. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: We will give Sheila a 16 minute to return to her seat. We will assume, Mr. 17 Tofle, you will be asking some questions. 18 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. 19 DIRECTOR NIXON: I am ready. 20 MR. TOFLE: Now, based on your 21 statement, when you signed this complaint, you had 22 actually seen the check register on the Internet? 23 DIRECTOR NIXON: Yes, I had. 24 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you said you 25 printed out about five pages. 159 1 Did you read the whole thing? 2 DIRECTOR NIXON: Well, yes. I read it 3 before I started printing it. 4 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you knew that it 5 only contained the year 2003, correct? 6 DIRECTOR NIXON: Yes. 7 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you knew there 8 were no complete credit card numbers on there? 9 DIRECTOR NIXON: Not on the part I had 10 looked at at that point. 11 MR. TOFLE: You didn't see that? 12 DIRECTOR NIXON: No. 13 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did you see that 14 there were no complete federal or state tax I.D. 15 numbers? 16 DIRECTOR NIXON: Not on the part I 17 looked at, no. 18 MR. TOFLE: Did you see that there were 19 no complete safety deposit box numbers? 20 DIRECTOR NIXON: Yes, I saw there were 21 none. 22 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So, prior to signing 23 the complaint, did you actually look at the 2003 24 check register to see if it contained all of this 25 stuff, the complete credit card number, the 160 1 complete federal and state I.D. numbers, and 2 complete safety deposit numbers; did you see if it 3 was contained on the Internet? 4 DIRECTOR NIXON: As I said, I looked at 5 the first four or five pages. I did not look at 6 the complete document, no. 7 MR. TOFLE: So, at the meeting when you 8 signed the complaint, you didn't really know what 9 was in the 2003 check register? 10 DIRECTOR NIXON: I knew what was in the 11 part that I had seen. 12 MR. TOFLE: All right. Did you 13 participate in writing the complaint? 14 DIRECTOR NIXON: No. 15 MR. TOFLE: Do you know who wrote it? 16 DIRECTOR NIXON: No, not completely. I 17 believe it was written by Bonnie Kempe, Bonnie and 18 Paul Kempe. 19 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And did somebody ask 20 you to sign the complaint? 21 DIRECTOR NIXON: No. 22 MR. TOFLE: How is it that you came to 23 sign it? 24 DIRECTOR NIXON: I had been involved in 25 discussion from the time I arrived at the Annual 161 1 Meeting about this activity and how we could stop 2 the blood from flowing. 3 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 4 DIRECTOR NIXON: And one of my 5 suggestions was that we file a complaint charging 6 conduct detrimental and the discussion grew, and 7 prior to the meeting several of us talked about 8 writing that. When it was written, I was 9 approached and I said yes, I would sign it. 10 MR. TOFLE: And who did you make your 11 suggestion to that a complaint charging conduct 12 detrimental be filed? Who did you suggest that 13 to? 14 DIRECTOR NIXON: Any person who asked me 15 about it. 16 MR. TOFLE: Like who, for example? 17 DIRECTOR NIXON: I talked to Lelia Berry 18 and I talked to Dr. Joan Rowe. I felt that that 19 was the proper resolution for someone who violated 20 a confidentiality statement and exposed us to this 21 kind of harm. 22 MR. TOFLE: And did they all encourage 23 you to do that, then, file a complaint? 24 DIRECTOR NIXON: No, no one encouraged 25 me to file a complaint. 162 1 MR. TOFLE: Well, what did they say? 2 Did they urge you not to file? 3 DIRECTOR NIXON: No. Most of them 4 agreed that this was proper action, that that 5 should be done, yes. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And have you suffered 7 any financial harm as a result of the 2003 check 8 register being posted on the Web? 9 DIRECTOR NIXON: My issue has never been 10 financial harm. 11 MR. TOFLE: All right. 12 DIRECTOR NIXON: It has been the issue 13 of undermining the Association and it is making it 14 difficult for ADGA to do its job. 15 MR. TOFLE: You didn't suffer any 16 financial harm? 17 DIRECTOR NIXON: Not that I know of. 18 MR. TOFLE: Did anyone, that you know 19 of, suffer financial harm as a result of the check 20 register being posted on the Internet? 21 DIRECTOR NIXON: No one that I know 22 of -- well, I take that back. The Association has 23 spent a great deal of time trying to sort this 24 out. Our meeting last year was under a cloud, an 25 absolutely cloud of gloom, because we could not 163 1 focus on what we had been sent to Albuquerque to 2 take care of. 3 You can't put a dollar figure on that, 4 but you certainly can put a moral time and 5 emotional toll. Our Board was tired simply from 6 dealing with this mess. It was the timing of it 7 and the turmoil, the fact we had to start a 8 meeting under this cloud and try to step around 9 making sure everyone was protected, including Mr. 10 Goddard, that everyone was protected and we could 11 still do our job. 12 We only had two days to do our job, and 13 four days were taken away from us taking care of 14 this mess. So, you can't put a dollar sign on 15 that, but you can certainly put a sign of it 16 harming the Association. 17 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, I see the 18 transcript of last year's meeting is almost 1,000 19 pages. Only a handful of pages have anything to 20 do with Mr. Goddard and the check register; is 21 that right? 22 DIRECTOR NIXON: That's true. Would you 23 like to know why? 24 MR. TOFLE: Sure. 25 DIRECTOR NIXON: Because our Executive 164 1 Committee spent a good deal of time negotiating 2 with Mr. Goddard to get things -- to get the Web 3 site down and get things taken care of so we could 4 go to work. 5 He agreed to get it down and we would 6 not do anything to him at that time. That is how 7 we did it so we could go on with the Association's 8 business so it wasn't a loss there. We were very 9 careful to not discuss it publicly, to protect Mr. 10 Goddard and the Association. 11 MR. TOFLE: Now, do you think Mr. 12 Goddard published the check register on the 13 Internet to harm ADGA? 14 DIRECTOR NIXON: Yes, I do. 15 MR. TOFLE: Do you think it was 16 maliciously done to harm ADGA? 17 DIRECTOR NIXON: Yes, I do. 18 MR. TOFLE: And in the complaint you say 19 that Noah Goddard should be responsible for all 20 business expenses associated with the remedy of 21 this matter incurred by ADGA and its members and 22 employees. What expenses are those? 23 DIRECTOR NIXON: The Association has had 24 to deal with all that went on at the meeting. 25 MR. TOFLE: Right. 165 1 DIRECTOR NIXON: And I would assume in 2 the future we may end up having legal fees that we 3 have to take care of because of this complaint. 4 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And other legal fees, 5 is there any particular expense that you wish to 6 pinpoint that the organization has had? 7 DIRECTOR NIXON: Nothing other than we 8 would have with the business of the Association 9 signing any other complaint. There are procedures 10 we have to follow in the Association to take care 11 of the policies and procedures once a complaint is 12 filed. 13 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, you 14 personally had no financial harm; is that correct? 15 DIRECTOR NIXON: Correct. I repeatedly 16 told you that my comments were restricted to other 17 financial. 18 MR. TOFLE: Are you filing your 19 complaint on behalf of ADGA? 20 DIRECTOR NIXON: No, I am not. I stated 21 I was filing a complaint as a member of the 22 Association. 23 MR. TOFLE: Okay. I have no further 24 questions. 25 DIRECTOR NIXON: Thank you. 166 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bonnie Kempe, would you 2 like to come forward? 3 DIRECTOR KEMPE: My name is Bonnie 4 Kempe. I signed this complaint as a member of the 5 American Dairy Goat Association, and not as a 6 member of this Board. Two days before I left for 7 the 2004 ADGA Annual Meeting, I received a message 8 and I was told to look at a public Web site named 9 www.dairygoatcheck register.com. I did so 10 This Web site contained the transactions 11 detailed by accounts in the year 2003. On the 12 front page there was a confidentiality statement 13 which read in part, and I quote, "This report 14 contains information that is privileged and 15 confidential and is solely for the use of the 16 intended recipients." 17 This packet of transactions detailed by 18 account was sent to Director Noah Goddard to be 19 used in his job as a Director of the American 20 Dairy Goat Association. By publishing the 2003 21 transactions detailed by account in its entirety 22 on the Web site, I believe that Mr. Goddard has 23 violated the trust placed in him by the American 24 Dairy Goat Association and as an ADGA Director he 25 breached his fiduciary duty to District V as well 167 1 as the entire ADGA membership. I believe this was 2 conduct detrimental to the Association. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you, Bonnie. 4 Do you have some questions, Mr. Tofle, 5 for Bonnie after she sits down? 6 MR. TOFLE: Yes. Are you ready? 7 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes, go ahead. 8 MR. TOFLE: When you saw this two days 9 before you left for the meeting, you saw the 10 complete 2003 check register that was on the 11 Internet? 12 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes, i did. 13 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did you read it all? 14 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I read probably three- 15 quarters of it. When I use my computer at home, I 16 tie up my phone number, so I figured three- 17 quarters of it was enough, and I hung up. 18 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, did you write 19 the complaint? 20 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I authored the 21 complaint along with my husband, yes. 22 MR. TOFLE: All right. And where did 23 you get the language that you used in the 24 complaint? 25 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Between the two of us 168 1 we came up with it on our own. 2 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did anybody ask you 3 or encourage you to file the complaint or prepare 4 the complaint? 5 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, when you wrote 7 the complaint, did you think it contained people's 8 full names and credit card numbers? 9 DIRECTOR KEMPE: The complaint 10 contained? 11 MR. TOFLE: The 2003 check register. 12 DIRECTOR KEMPE: The check register that 13 I saw personally in my hand when I got here to the 14 convention had partial credit card numbers on it. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. You knew the only 16 thing published on the Internet was the 2003 check 17 register; is that correct? 18 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 19 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you say that you 20 held the 2003 check register in your hand when you 21 got to Albuquerque? 22 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 23 MR. TOFLE: And what I am asking you, 24 when you wrote this complaint, did you think that 25 the 2003 check register contained full names and 169 1 full credit card numbers? 2 DIRECTOR KEMPE: It had full names, and 3 I realized it only had partial credit card 4 numbers. 5 MR. TOFLE: All right. Did you think it 6 contained full federal or state I.D. numbers? 7 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I believe it did. 8 MR. TOFLE: Did you believe that it 9 contained full safety deposit box numbers? 10 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I believe it did, yes. 11 MR. TOFLE: Was that based on what you 12 heard at the Board meeting? 13 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No, that was based on 14 what I heard at a Financial Committee meeting. 15 MR. TOFLE: I see. Someone at the 16 Financial Committee meeting told you that the 2003 17 check register contained the full numbers that 18 were on the Web? 19 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 20 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And that ADGA EC was 21 chaired by Mr. Considine? 22 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 23 MR. TOFLE: Did he tell you that? 24 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I don't know if it was 25 him or someone else sitting in the room, but I was 170 1 told that at the time. 2 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, were you at 3 the Board meeting when Lelia Berry asked 4 specifically if her full name and full credit card 5 number was contained on the Web that was posted by 6 Mr. Goddard? 7 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I was at the Board 8 meeting. I do not remember that exact question. 9 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Well, you heard me 10 ask her if she asked that and she said she did, 11 and she was told her full name and credit card at 12 the meeting is contained in the transcript, that 13 they were contained on the Web posted by Mr. 14 Goddard? 15 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I don't remember the 16 conversation. I will have to look it up in the 17 minutes. Right now I can't say yes. 18 MR. TOFLE: At that Board meeting, did 19 you know whether the full credit card numbers were 20 or were not on the check register? 21 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I knew they were not. 22 The only one that was posted was 2003. 23 MR. TOFLE: So you didn't say anything 24 about it, though? 25 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 171 1 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And now, prior years, 2 the check registers for prior years had some 3 complete numbers, didn't they? 4 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I don't believe I had 5 seen anything but 2002, 2003. 6 MR. TOFLE: 2002 had the numbers? 7 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I believe in one place 8 they did. 9 MR. TOFLE: They had a lot more complete 10 numbers than contained on the 2003 check register, 11 correct? 12 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 13 MR. TOFLE: Now, do you believe that Mr. 14 Goddard intentionally wanted to harm ADGA? 15 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Harm is not the word I 16 would use. I think he was intentionally trying to 17 embarrass ADGA. 18 MR. TOFLE: Embarrass ADGA? 19 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 20 MR. TOFLE: Did he ever tell you that? 21 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 22 MR. TOFLE: Did you suffer any financial 23 harm as a result of the 2003 check register being 24 posted on the Web? 25 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Personally, no. 172 1 MR. TOFLE: Do you know of anyone who 2 did suffer financial harm as a result of the 2003 3 check register being posted on the Web? 4 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Not at this time, but 5 the potential was there. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So you were not 7 harmed. Are you filing this on behalf of ADGA? 8 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 9 MR. TOFLE: Okay. In this complaint, I 10 guess you wrote this, you say that Mr. Goddard has 11 shown total disregard and lack of remorse in 12 leaking the confidential information he was 13 entrusted with. What did you base that on? 14 DIRECTOR KEMPE: The confidentiality 15 statement that was on the first page. 16 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 17 DIRECTOR KEMPE: And lack of remorse. 18 He sat there for a whole day and never said I am 19 sorry, I didn't mean to. He said nothing. 20 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 21 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No show of remorse or 22 any kind of reaction whatsoever. 23 MR. TOFLE: All right. When you sat 24 there, do you recall that he indicated he would 25 like to have a lawyer present during the meeting? 173 1 DIRECTOR KEMPE: There was a 2 conversation at the beginning of the meeting that 3 if something was going to be discussed, he would 4 like his lawyer present. I believe the answer to 5 him was we are not going to bring your name up, we 6 are not discussing that now. 7 MR. TOFLE: It did get discussed, 8 though, didn't it? You said he sat there while 9 all this was discussed, and he didn't say 10 anything? 11 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No, no, that is not 12 what I meant. 13 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did you mean? 14 DIRECTOR KEMPE: At the time, in the 15 beginning of the meeting when we explained to him, 16 or the EC explained to him they were not going to 17 discuss this particular incident, the check 18 register right then and there publicly in the 19 meeting, he would not need an attorney present. 20 As the day progressed, his demeanor the 21 whole day, either in this meeting or out in the 22 hallway, or eating lunch, or any place else in the 23 building, he never said I didn't mean to hurt 24 anybody. I should have thought twice, or anything 25 like that, nothing. 174 1 MR. TOFLE: Well, when you say his 2 demeanor, are you saying he didn't say those 3 words? 4 DIRECTOR KEMPE: He certainly didn't 5 even say them. I don't think he even ate lunch 6 with us that day. 7 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you are reading 8 into the fact that he didn't eat lunch with you 9 that -- 10 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No, I am saying that he 11 just acted -- how can I explain it to you? He 12 just made me very uncomfortable the whole day. 13 MR. TOFLE: He made you uncomfortable? 14 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Yes. 15 MR. TOFLE: Do you think he may have 16 felt uncomfortable? 17 DIRECTOR KEMPE: He may have. 18 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And when it was 19 stated in response to Lelia Berry's question that 20 her full name and her full credit card number was 21 contained in the 2003 register, posted on the 22 Internet by Mr. Goddard, you didn't say anything 23 either, did you? 24 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 25 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Do you think that 175 1 made Mr. Goddard feel uncomfortable? 2 DIRECTOR KEMPE: I am sure Mr. Goddard 3 did feel uncomfortable that day. We all did, sir. 4 MR. TOFLE: Now, your complaint, the 5 wording you wrote, you say that Noah Goddard 6 should be responsible for all legal and business 7 expenses associated with the remedy of this matter 8 incurred by ADGA, its members and employees. 9 Do you know of any expenses that have 10 been incurred? 11 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Not exactly expenses, 12 but I am sure there will be before this is over. 13 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you said you 14 personally had no expense or financial harm; is 15 that correct? 16 DIRECTOR KEMPE: Correct. 17 MR. TOFLE: Are you filing this on 18 behalf of ADGA? 19 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 20 MR. TOFLE: No? 21 DIRECTOR KEMPE: No. 22 MR. TOFLE: Okay. I don't have any 23 further questions. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: All right. At this 25 time I will leave it up to you. Do you have any 176 1 people you would like to present with testimony? 2 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle. 4 MR. TOFLE: I would like to start by 5 calling Noah Goddard to present his testimony. I 6 would like to ask him some questions and have him 7 answer them. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. 9 MR. TOFLE: Mr. Goddard, how long have 10 you been a member of ADGA? 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Will you turn that on? 12 MR. TOFLE: Noah, how long have you been 13 a member of ADGA? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Sixteen years. We 15 joined ADGA in September, 1989. 16 MR. TOFLE: When were you first elected 17 to the Board? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: August of 1998. 19 MR. TOFLE: And how long did you serve? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I served three years 21 the first time. 22 MR. TOFLE: And did you run again? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, in 2001. I lost 24 that election. I was off the Board that year. 25 MR. TOFLE: All right. And, if you 177 1 will, speak up a little bit. 2 Did you run again? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I ran again in 2002 4 and was elected to a second term. 5 MR. TOFLE: All right. 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I got elected this 7 year for a third term. 8 MR. TOFLE: When did you first request 9 the check register? I see you called it the 10 transaction detail by account. When did you first 11 request a copy of it? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: The first copy I 13 received was in February, February 14th, 2000. 14 MR. TOFLE: And how did you learn that 15 it existed? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It came in our 17 regular packet with the update on the computer 18 system, the computer upgrade in progress at that 19 time. 20 MR. TOFLE: And what did you think when 21 you got it? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That was the first 23 that I knew this form existed, but I thought it 24 was much more understandable and provided a more 25 clear picture of the financial information than 178 1 the other documents that we had been provided. 2 MR. TOFLE: And when did you ask to get 3 a copy? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: A period of time went 5 by, maybe a month or two, after we got another 6 packet, and we got the packet further from the 7 ADGA office, and in the next packet that came 8 through, I didn't see it. 9 So I called the office and talked to the 10 secretary-treasurer and I asked if I could have 11 one of those documents each month. 12 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did he say? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said that he 14 didn't think there was any problem doing that, 15 that it was just a matter of printing it out. 16 MR. TOFLE: All right. And when did you 17 finally get it? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: In September, 19 October, 2005. 20 MR. TOFLE: All right. So what happened 21 that took so long? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I kept asking 23 him for it and I kept getting all kinds of 24 answers. First of all, he said I could have it, 25 and then he said I couldn't have it, that the EC 179 1 didn't want us to have it. 2 It kind of went on like that for several 3 months. Then I was off the Board for a year, and 4 so a couple of years went by, and then I asked for 5 it again, and continued to ask for it, and finally 6 I was told in the summer of 2004 that we could 7 have it. 8 MR. TOFLE: Did you get it in the summer 9 of 2004? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I never actually got 11 it until the 12th of October, 2004. 12 MR. TOFLE: All right. And at that time 13 what did you want to do with it? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, my purpose in 15 wanting this document was to share it with the 16 membership in my District so we could look at it 17 for cost-cutting measures and see if there were 18 places where we could save money on the budget. 19 I wanted to review that for that purpose 20 myself, and also to share it with the members in 21 my District. 22 MR. TOFLE: Why did you think that was 23 important to you? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, we had -- I had 25 heard rumors we were going to have a fee increase 180 1 and I thought in order to justify a fee increase 2 to the membership I would need to know if there 3 was a place we could cut costs first. 4 MR. TOFLE: What did you get at that 5 time? What was sent to you? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: What was sent to me 7 was 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003. I got four years, 8 I believe. 9 MR. TOFLE: What did you decide to do? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I was kind of 11 running out of time because I needed this 12 information to get feedback from the membership. 13 It was way too expensive to mail it out to all the 14 District V members and I didn't have -- I just 15 didn't have the time. So, I decided to put it on 16 the Web site. 17 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And what exactly did 18 you decide to put on the Web site? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I thought it would be 20 just sufficient to use the most current year. I 21 really wanted 2004, but it had not been provided 22 to me. 23 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And so before you 24 then proceeded to put it on the Web site, did you 25 take a good look at it? 181 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I did indeed. I 2 looked at it many times. 3 MR. TOFLE: What did you look for? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I looked for anything 5 that would be potentially damaging to the 6 organization in terms of all those credit card 7 numbers, and I didn't see anything. 8 MR. TOFLE: How did it look to you? How 9 did the check register look to you? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It looked to me like 11 somebody in the office had already cleaned it up, 12 because it wasn't any information there about 13 payroll or salaries. 14 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did it have complete 15 federal or state I.D. numbers? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It did not. None of 17 the numbers I saw were complete numbers. 18 MR. TOFLE: It had like two numbers 19 representing the federal and state tax I.D. 20 numbers? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That is correct, yes. 22 MR. TOFLE: And so what did you do to 23 put it on the Web? What did you do? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I knew of a person in 25 Arkansas who was a Web master and did Web sites. 182 1 So, I contacted her and asked her if she would put 2 it up for me. 3 MR. TOFLE: All right. And did you know 4 her personally? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I did not. 6 MR. TOFLE: How did you know of her? 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I just knew her from 8 District V, as a member of District V. 9 MR. TOFLE: Did you contact her? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I did. 11 MR. TOFLE: What did you ask her to do? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I asked her if she 13 would post this 30-page document, the 2003 check 14 register for me on my Web site, and she said she 15 would. 16 MR. TOFLE: All right. What was your 17 arrangements with her to do? Was it a favor to 18 you or what? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, indeed it was 20 not. I paid her to do this. It was a commercial 21 transaction. 22 MR. TOFLE: All right. And do you 23 remember about when it went out? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe it was the 25 21st of October that I posted this on the e-mail 183 1 address. 2 MR. TOFLE: Did you get any feedback 3 from the members of your District? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I did. I got some, 5 but I was running out of time. I got more 6 feedback after I came back from the convention 7 than I had gotten before I left. 8 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did people have ideas 9 and suggestions? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: A lot of ideas, yes, 11 they did. 12 MR. TOFLE: You put it up and then you 13 left for Albuquerque yourself? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct 15 MR. TOFLE: When did you get to 16 Albuquerque? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Monday afternoon. 18 MR. TOFLE: All right. Did you stay at 19 the host hotel? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I did not. 21 MR. TOFLE: Where did you stay? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I stayed at a Best 23 Western nearby. 24 MR. TOFLE: All right. And on that 25 Monday, was it October 25th, did you go to the 184 1 host hotel? 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 3 MR. TOFLE: All right. And what 4 happened when you got there? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: At check-in, I was 6 told, I believe the person that I chatted with was 7 Joan Vandergriff, that told me that Daniel 8 Considine was looking for me. 9 MR. TOFLE: Did you find him? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Not right away. She 11 said it was important that I find him right away, 12 and I looked around for him but I couldn't find 13 him anywhere. 14 MR. TOFLE: All right. And did you ever 15 find him? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: About 7:00 or 7:30, I 17 bumped into him on the way to the general 18 membership meeting. 19 MR. TOFLE: What did he say? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said to me 21 that -- he brought up the check register that had 22 been posted to the Web site and he said it had to 23 come down immediately. 24 MR. TOFLE: All right. What did you 25 say? 185 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, we argued about 2 it some. I told him that it was a bit of 3 information, that the membership had a right to 4 see that information. He said they didn't. I 5 showed him the Guidebook where I felt like they 6 did. He said that -- 7 MR. TOFLE: Now, where in the Guidebook 8 does it say that? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Under Audits. 10 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 11 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that was on 12 Page 7, I believe. 13 MR. TOFLE: And what did he say? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said that the 15 membership didn't need to see that information. 16 As I recall, that is what he said. He said that 17 is what they elect you and I for to take care of 18 that. 19 MR. TOFLE: All right. And what else 20 was said? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I told him that I 22 didn't think that I could take it down until I got 23 home, because I didn't have the Web master's phone 24 number. 25 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did he say? 186 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He says it has to 2 come down tonight. 3 MR. TOFLE: All right. And what else 4 did he say? Did he show displeasure of you having 5 posted it? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He did. He said he 7 thought there was enough support of the membership 8 to have a complaint signed against me, and he felt 9 that was the only way to handle it. 10 MR. TOFLE: All right. Was there 11 discussion about what was contained in the 2003 12 check register? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 14 MR. TOFLE: What did he say? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said there were 16 credit card numbers and they were potentially 17 damaging to the Association. 18 MR. TOFLE: What did you say? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I told him that there 20 was no such credit card numbers that were there. 21 They were the same thing that came out of the 22 receipt on a gas pump. 23 MR. TOFLE: What happened next? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, it was time to 25 go into the meeting, to the general meeting, so 187 1 the discussion kind of ended there. 2 MR. TOFLE: All right. And what 3 happened when you left the meeting? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, we kind of 5 bumped into each other there in the hallway and 6 took up the discussion again. 7 MR. TOFLE: All right. What did he say 8 to you? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said that they 10 were going to have an EC meeting the next morning, 11 right around 9:00 o'clock, and he wanted me to 12 come up, in fact, demanded I come up and meet with 13 the EC. 14 MR. TOFLE: What did you say? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I don't recall 16 exactly what I did say to him at that time. He 17 gave me his phone number and -- 18 MR. TOFLE: At that point did you intend 19 to go? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I did. I 21 thought I might go up and chat with him about it. 22 MR. TOFLE: All right. And was there 23 other discussion about taking the check register 24 off the Web site? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: At that time? 188 1 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: We may have continued 3 to talk about that. 4 MR. TOFLE: What did he say? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said it had to 6 come down tonight. 7 MR. TOFLE: All right. So he said that 8 to you numerous times? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 10 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What happened next? 11 Did you get his phone number? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 13 MR. TOFLE: Did he ask for your phone 14 number? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, and I gave him 16 my cell phone number. 17 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So what time was 18 this, do you recall? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Oh, it was probably 20 around 9:00 or 9:30 on Monday night. 21 MR. TOFLE: So what happened next? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that I left 23 and went back to my hotel. 24 MR. TOFLE: All right. And what did you 25 do when you went back to your hotel? 189 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: The first thing I did 2 was call my wife at home, and I wasn't able to get 3 her right away. I guess she was out doing chores. 4 But when I finally did, I was able to have her go 5 through some of my stuff and finally locate the 6 Web master's phone number. 7 MR. TOFLE: All right. That is 8 Danielle? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, Danielle 10 Westbank. 11 MR. TOFLE: What did you do next? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I immediately called 13 her and asked her if she would take the Web site 14 down for me. I told her that I was being 15 threatened with an ADGA complaint, and there was a 16 lot of -- it was demanded I take the Web site 17 down. I asked her if she could do that. 18 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What happened next? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: She did. She told me 20 she could take it down, and she said that she was 21 doing that while I was on the phone, and she did. 22 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And did you do 23 anything else that night? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I did. I tried to 25 call Mr. Beauvais, and he is an attorney in New 190 1 Mexico and an ADGA member. I felt like that the 2 threat of a complaint I needed some legal advice. 3 I tried to call Mr. Beauvais, but I was not 4 successful in reaching him. I left a number on 5 his phone recorder. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did you do the 7 next morning? That would be what, Tuesday, 8 October 26th? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Tuesday morning 10 early, I got up and went down to the breakfast 11 area of the hotel I was staying in. I guess the 12 first thing I did was I called Mr. Beauvais and 13 talked to him about it. 14 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And what did you say 15 to him? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I told him-- 17 described to him what had occurred, and he said 18 that I should not meet with the Executive 19 Committee. He told me that I needed to write them 20 a letter and explain to them that I should not 21 meet with them without an attorney being present, 22 and that I should tell the Executive Committee in 23 this letter that I would meet with them with my 24 attorney present and go before the Board and 25 explain my position. 191 1 I did that. I constructed a letter 2 there on the computer at the breakfast area, and I 3 told Mr. Considine that -- 4 MR. TOFLE: In the letter. 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: -- in the letter 6 exactly what Mr. Beauvais had told me to say. I 7 told him I would take the Web site down. 8 MR. TOFLE: When did you say you would 9 take it down? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Immediately. 11 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: In the letter, that 13 if ADGA would identify to me those numbers that 14 they claimed were potentially damaging, I would 15 remove those before I put the Web site back up. 16 I had also given Mr. Considine my cell 17 phone number again in the letter, and Mr. Beauvais 18 suggested that I not go to the hotel or meet with 19 the EC, but have this letter delivered to them 20 personally. And I did that. 21 MR. TOFLE: Now, this letter, just 22 almost like everything else you have testified to 23 so far about, it is contained in the package that 24 was sent out to all of the Directors. I guess 25 this was last December, correct? 192 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, that is correct. 2 MR. TOFLE: All right. And in that 3 package, it included all kinds of documents, phone 4 records, showing you made various calls and 5 documentation from the Board meeting; is that 6 correct? 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 8 MR. TOFLE: And all kinds of other 9 documents? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 11 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, did you 12 hear back from Mr. Considine that day, that 13 Tuesday? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Around lunch time he 15 called me on my cell phone. 16 MR. TOFLE: What did he say? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said he was 18 disappointed that I had decided not to meet and 19 with my position that I had taken, and that I had 20 decided not to meet with the EC Committee. He 21 kept saying that the only way to handle this was 22 to file a complaint. 23 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, let me just 24 back up for a minute. 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Okay. 193 1 MR. TOFLE: Where did you write the 2 letter? Where did you go to write the letter to 3 the EC? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I wrote it on the 5 computer that was available there at the breakfast 6 area of the hotel where I was staying. 7 MR. TOFLE: All right. When you wrote 8 the letter, did you do anything else on the 9 computer there? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I did. 11 MR. TOFLE: What did you do? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I checked the check 13 register Web site to see if I could access it, and 14 I could not. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you knew the e- 16 mail address for it? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I knew the e-mail 18 address for it, and I used my password and I.D. 19 number to get on the computer. 20 MR. TOFLE: So what was there? When you 21 wrote in the address, what came up? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: A message came up 23 that said, "This Web site is unavailable." 24 MR. TOFLE: So were you surprised? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, not at all. 194 1 MR. TOFLE: Because just the night 2 before you asked Danielle, you had asked her to 3 take it down, and she did? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 5 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So you got the call 6 later that day, then, from Dan Considine, and he 7 was upset that you didn't come to the meeting? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 9 MR. TOFLE: What else was said in that 10 call? 11 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, he said -- he 12 said you referred to your lawyer, and he said I 13 guess that is Mr. Beauvais. I said indeed it was. 14 He said that maybe the two of them could work it 15 out. 16 MR. TOFLE: Now, before you get to that 17 point -- 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Okay. 19 MR. TOFLE: -- did he mention that they 20 would be again filing a complaint against you? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, he did. 22 MR. TOFLE: What did you say in response 23 to him? What did you say to him? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I told him I thought 25 that was a little severe and I wondered if there 195 1 could be some other solution that could be worked 2 out. 3 MR. TOFLE: What did he say about the 4 letter you wrote to him? He had read the letter, 5 correct? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 7 MR. TOFLE: And did you point out to him 8 you had already told him in the letter you were 9 taking the Web site down? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Did I? I told him 11 that I thought that was the compromise they had 12 asked for, and that I had done everything they 13 expected me to do, and I don't know what else I 14 could do. 15 MR. TOFLE: What did he say then? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, it was right in 17 there that he said that maybe the attorneys could 18 get together and work out a solution. 19 MR. TOFLE: And he said or suspected was 20 Mr. Beauvais? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 22 MR. TOFLE: What did he say then? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He asked me for Mr. 24 Beauvais' phone number, and I gave him Mr. 25 Beauvais' phone number in the office and his home 196 1 phone number. 2 MR. TOFLE: What did he say? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said he would call 4 him and have Mr. Dalton and Beauvais to work out 5 an agreement. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did you say to 7 that? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I told him that that 9 would be acceptable to me, and whatever agreement 10 that the attorneys could work out I would abide 11 by. 12 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And that was Tuesday 13 afternoon? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It was after lunch, 15 yes. 16 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, did you hear -- 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It was around lunch 18 time, maybe 12:30 to 1:00. 19 MR. TOFLE: Sometime later that day? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 21 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, after that, 22 did you hear again from Mr. Beauvais? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I did. 24 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And what did he say? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said that he and 197 1 Mr. Dalton had worked out a compromise and was 2 wondering if I would take down the Web site, no 3 charges would be filed against me. 4 MR. TOFLE: All right. What else? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He also said that 6 they were going to refer the issue to the 7 Constitution and Bylaws Committee of ADGA to work 8 out what information that could be distributed in 9 the future. 10 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So when were they 11 going to refer it to the Constitution and Bylaws 12 Committee? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said it would be 14 at the Annual Meeting that was going on at that 15 time. 16 MR. TOFLE: When were they going to do 17 this? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said they were 19 going to take it up -- I think he said they were 20 going to refer it to the Constitution and Bylaws 21 Committee to bring back to the meeting next year. 22 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So like they would 23 work on this at a later date? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 25 MR. TOFLE: And create a policy in what 198 1 financial information could be distributed to the 2 members? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 4 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And what did he say 5 then about his talk with Mr. Dalton? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said to me -- do 7 you mean Mr. Beauvais? 8 MR. TOFLE: What did Mr. Beauvais tell 9 you about it? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said an agreement 11 had been reached between the two attorneys and it 12 was a done deal. 13 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And were you 14 relieved? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I was. 16 MR. TOFLE: All right. And you had 17 already taken down the Web site, correct? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I had. That was 19 on Monday night. 20 MR. TOFLE: All right. So the next 21 thing was that there was a Board meeting the 22 following day on Wednesday; is that correct? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 24 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And in the package of 25 documentation we submitted, I don't know if the 199 1 Board has it here, you have excerpts from the 2 various Board meetings; is that correct? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 4 MR. TOFLE: And what happened when you 5 went to the Board meeting on that Wednesday? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Robin Saum brought up 7 the issue of the check register, and she asked me 8 if I wanted to go into Executive Session, and I 9 told her that I did not, but I thought that this 10 had all been resolved by the attorneys. 11 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: There had been an 13 exchange of letters. I had not seen the letters 14 yet, but Mr. Beauvais told me it had all been 15 resolved. 16 MR. TOFLE: Okay. How did Mr. Beauvais 17 characterize it? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: His specific words to 19 me was it is a done deal. 20 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And then at the 21 meeting, what did Mr. Considine say? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: As I recall, he said 23 the letters were in disagreement. 24 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So you didn't have 25 the letter? 200 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I did not. I had 2 not seen the letter. 3 MR. TOFLE: All right. I think the 4 people that spoke earlier, they all mentioned 5 there was some question about whether you go into 6 Executive Session, or something at that point. 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 8 MR. TOFLE: Did you feel any need at 9 that point to go into closed session? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I didn't. Robin 11 Saum said this was going to be about me 12 personally. 13 MR. TOFLE: All right. So based on 14 that, you indicated you needed a closed session? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. I did feel 16 then that I felt uncomfortable discussing it 17 without my attorney being present. 18 MR. TOFLE: And why did you feel 19 uncomfortable discussing it without your attorney 20 being present? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, because they 22 were talking about filing an ADGA complaint on me, 23 which is detrimental, and Mr. Beauvais cautioned 24 me not to discuss any of that without him being 25 present, and I just thought if I said anything 201 1 that it would make matters worse. 2 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did you think 3 would happen if you didn't say anything? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I thought it 5 would make it worse. 6 MR. TOFLE: What did you think, based on 7 what Mr. Beauvais told you that it was -- 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I thought that if I 9 just didn't say anything, that after the meeting 10 was over I would talk to Mr. Beauvais and I would 11 tell him what occurred, and he would straighten it 12 out. 13 MR. TOFLE: Did he indicate he had an 14 exchange of letters? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He told me he had an 16 exchange of letters and had made a deal and 17 arrangement with Mr. Dalton. 18 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, did Mr. Cassette 19 tell the Board what was contained in the 2003 20 check register that is posted on the Web? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He did. 22 MR. TOFLE: What did he say was in it? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: He said there were 24 complete credit card numbers and he listed a 25 number of other account numbers. 202 1 MR. TOFLE: In whole or in part? 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: In whole or in part. 3 MR. TOFLE: Was Ms. Berry's complete 4 name and credit card number on it, did he say 5 that? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Mr. Cassette said her 7 name and credit card number was. 8 MR. TOFLE: Now, knowing that, having 9 seen the actual document and knowing what was in 10 it, whenever you heard him saying these things, 11 what did you say? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I was in shock. 13 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I couldn't believe my 15 ears. 16 MR. TOFLE: All right. And again why 17 didn't you say anything? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I just thought 19 it would make matters worse if I did. 20 MR. TOFLE: And -- 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I thought Mr. 22 Beauvais would straighten it out for me after I 23 had had an opportunity to contact him. 24 MR. TOFLE: Okay. You thought that it 25 was a misunderstanding? 203 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It was some terrible 2 misunderstanding here about the information. 3 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Mrs. Campbell, she 4 spoke also? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, she did. 6 MR. TOFLE: What did she say about what 7 had occurred? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, she said that 9 the Web site was still up. I believe she said as 10 of yesterday. 11 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that was on 13 Wednesday that she made that statement. 14 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And at that time 15 could you understand that? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I couldn't understand 17 that, because I had taken it down or had my Web 18 master take it down on Monday night. 19 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So all these things 20 were surprising to you? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Very surprising. 22 MR. TOFLE: Now, what happened after 23 that meeting? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: After the Wednesday 25 meeting? 204 1 MR. TOFLE: Yes. 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't recall that 3 anything happened until Friday. 4 MR. TOFLE: What happened when you went 5 to the Friday meeting? That would be October 6 29th? 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. I was on a 8 break, and during the break Linda Campbell came to 9 me and she said that if I would give her the 10 password and the I.D. number that she wanted for 11 my Web site, she could take it down immediately. 12 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: And I was rather 14 surprised that she was asking me for that because 15 I had already taken it down on Monday night. 16 MR. TOFLE: All right. 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I couldn't see how it 18 could possibly be up. She said, "Well, it is 19 still up." 20 MR. TOFLE: All right. What did you 21 say? Did she have an explanation about how it 22 might be up or what might have happened? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: She said that -- as I 24 recall, I am not real computer savvy, but as I 25 recall she said when you put a sheet up in front 205 1 of it on the front of it, that that makes it 2 appear not to be there, but you can still go 3 behind that and get the files. 4 MR. TOFLE: All right. So what did you 5 do then? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, she showed me a 7 piece of paper at some distance. She wasn't clear 8 with me. She showed me a piece of paper that I 9 thought was what she had implied was a print-out 10 of the Web site. But I didn't see how that could 11 be possible. 12 MR. TOFLE: Okay. You were surprised? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I was very surprised. 14 MR. TOFLE: What did you do after the 15 meeting? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I was so concerned 17 about that, that after the meeting I called 18 Danielle Westbank and chatted with her about it. 19 She said she didn't see how it was possible 20 either, because she had taken all the files down 21 on Monday night while I was talking to her on the 22 phone. 23 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What did you say 24 then? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I said is there 206 1 anything else you can do? She said, "I can 2 disconnect the Web site from the server." 3 MR. TOFLE: All right. 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: And I told her to do 5 that. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. That was Friday? 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That was Friday 8 afternoon after the meeting was over. 9 MR. TOFLE: At the Friday meeting date, 10 the Board had passed several resolutions; is that 11 correct? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, they did. 13 MR. TOFLE: One, they modified the stamp 14 or the confidentiality statement -- 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 16 MR. TOFLE: -- to clarify that? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 18 MR. TOFLE: And that stamp referred to 19 the intended recipients of the information? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: The intended 21 recipient, yes. 22 MR. TOFLE: Were you the intended 23 recipient of the information? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe I was and I 25 believe the membership was also the intended 207 1 recipients. 2 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did you understand 3 that that applied to you, or how did you read that 4 confidentiality statement? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I thought that the 6 confidentiality statement that was on the check 7 register applied to somebody who was mistakenly 8 sent the information. 9 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That it didn't apply 11 to me or to the District V membership. 12 MR. TOFLE: All right. What happened 13 when you got home? Well, there was another 14 resolution; is that correct? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 16 MR. TOFLE: And that was what? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That was a resolution 18 that required me to take the check register down 19 immediately. 20 MR. TOFLE: By 5:00 o'clock that day? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe it was 5:00 22 o'clock that day. 23 MR. TOFLE: All right. And did you 24 believe it already was done? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. I didn't 208 1 understand what was going on. I was confused. 2 MR. TOFLE: All right. 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Because I had had it 4 taken down on Monday night. 5 MR. TOFLE: All right. But you called 6 Danielle again and she disconnected it again from 7 everything? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 9 MR. TOFLE: What happened when you got 10 home? 11 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Nothing right away. 12 MR. TOFLE: Then what? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, in about a 14 week, I got a call from Robin Saum on Sunday 15 evening that said six ADGA members had filed a 16 complaint against me on the check register. 17 MR. TOFLE: What did you say? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I expressed my 19 surprise, because I told her I thought the matter 20 had been resolved among the attorneys, ADGA's 21 attorney and my attorney. She told me that this 22 was not coming from the EC, it was coming from the 23 membership. 24 MR. TOFLE: Now, the three members here 25 today who spoke all felt you had a total lack of 209 1 remorse and concern. Do you feel you had a total 2 lack of remorse and concern? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 4 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Did you do everything 5 that Mr. Considine and the Board asked you to do? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I did everything they 7 asked me to do. Yes, I did. 8 MR. TOFLE: As soon as they asked? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, as soon as they 10 asked. 11 MR. TOFLE: The only thing you didn't do 12 was go to that EC meeting that morning because Mr. 13 Beauvais advised you not to? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Because my attorney 15 advised me not to. 16 MR. TOFLE: But Mr. Considine said it 17 had to come down that day? 18 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 19 MR. TOFLE: Now, what do you say to the 20 Directors and others that had legitimate concerns 21 about your posting the 2003 check register on the 22 Web? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: If there was anything 24 that I did that was potentially damaging and 25 harmful to ADGA, I am very sorry. I wouldn't do 210 1 anything in the world to hurt ADGA or any of its 2 members. 3 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Do you have 5 other witnesses, Mr. Tofle, or are we done? Do 6 you want to speak to this witness? 7 MR. RUTH: Yes. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: We will yield the floor 9 to Mr. Ruth. I will afford him the same 10 opportunity, Mr. Tofle. 11 MR. TOFLE: If he wants to cross-examine 12 on behalf of ADGA? 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Correct. 14 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Well, you know, I 15 guess for the record I would object, because my 16 understanding that ADGA is not supposed to be a 17 party to this. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: I will let John address 19 that and the Board can make a motion if they 20 choose. 21 MR. RUTH: Well, it is the position of 22 the Board they found justification for the 23 complaint to go forward and to proceed with the 24 complaint. That will be our position. 25 MR. TOFLE: Are you saying this is 211 1 ADGA's complaint against Mr. Goddard? 2 MR. RUTH: Well, it started out as an 3 individual complaint. As the investigation went 4 forth, and the Association is following procedures 5 contained in the Guidebook, that is what I am 6 saying. I will try to talk up. 7 MR. TOFLE: I just want my objection on 8 the record. 9 MR. RUTH: Very good. 10 Mr. Goddard, do you have the booklet 11 that I put together that has exhibits in it that I 12 handed out to the Board? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Are you talking about 14 this one? 15 MR. RUTH: Yes, sir. 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I do. 17 MR. RUTH: All right. If you will turn 18 to Exhibit No. 4, the bottom part of that is an e- 19 mail request that you made to Robin and Danielle 20 requesting the account records for 2003-2004. 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe it is. 22 MR. RUTH: In response to that, under 23 the letter dated October 18th, which is Exhibit 5, 24 did you receive those records for 2000, 2001, 2002 25 and 2003? 212 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I did receive those, 2 yes. 3 MR. RUTH: And did you receive those on 4 or about October 12, 2004? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 6 MR. RUTH: Upon receipt of those 7 records, you made a decision that you were going 8 to try to post some or all of those records on the 9 Internet and contacted Danielle about that? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Just the 2003. 11 MR. RUTH: Was there a time when you 12 were going to post '04, but because of the cost 13 involved in 2003 you opted to only post that year? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I just felt that the 15 most recent ones were the most relevant. The 16 others were kind of stale in terms of time. So it 17 wasn't necessary to post all of them. 18 MR. RUTH: But you decided in 19 conjunction with Danielle Westbank that you posted 20 2003 transactions detailed by account for ADGA at 21 a site called www.dairygoatcheckregister.com? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: What was the question 23 again? 24 MR. RUTH: Working with Danielle 25 Westbank, did you authorize the posting of the 213 1 2003 transactions detailed by account records of 2 the American Dairy Goat Association on the Web 3 site, and that was with the address there of 4 www.dairygoatcheckregister.com? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I didn't. I 6 hired her to do that. 7 MR. RUTH: You authorized her to do 8 that? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 10 MR. RUTH: And you paid her a sum of 11 $350 to do that? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that is 13 correct, yes. 14 MR. RUTH: Ms. Westbank was able to post 15 the transaction details on the Web site on October 16 21, 2004; is that your understanding? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 18 MR. RUTH: And after you learned that it 19 was posted, did you then send an e-mail to your 20 District V folks as shown on Exhibit 6 of that 21 booklet; is that true? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 23 MR. RUTH: As I understand it, your 24 first day in Albuquerque was October 25, 2004, a 25 Monday? 214 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Monday afternoon. 2 MR. RUTH: And how did you get to 3 Albuquerque? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I flew. 5 MR. RUTH: When did your flight leave? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't recall. It 7 was on Monday. 8 MR. RUTH: Okay. Between the 21st of 9 October, when you left on Monday, the 25th, did 10 you receive any responses to your e-mail? 11 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 12 MR. RUTH: How many did you receive? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't recall 14 exactly. 15 MR. RUTH: More than five, less than 16 five? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Probably around four 18 or five. 19 MR. RUTH: And before the end of the 20 meeting, had you received any more before you left 21 your home? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. I didn't have 23 access to my computer. 24 MR. RUTH: You had been familiar with 25 the transactions detailed, the transactions 215 1 detailed by account since February 14, 2000, when 2 you first remembered receiving such a document in 3 your capacity as a Director? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 5 MR. RUTH: And did you believe that the 6 transaction detailed by account was a document 7 that had been audited by the Association's 8 Certified Public Accountant? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't know whether 10 it had or not. 11 MR. RUTH: So, you opposed the 12 transaction detailed by account on the Internet? 13 You authorized it without knowing whether or not 14 that was an audited report? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, it came from 16 the ADGA office. I assumed it was accurate. 17 MR. RUTH: I am not asking about its 18 accuracy, I am asking you about whether you 19 thought it was audited at the time you authorized 20 it to be posted. 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't know whether 22 it was audited or not. 23 MR. RUTH: Did you call anyone at the 24 home office to ask whether or not it was an 25 audited record? 216 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 2 MR. RUTH: Did you call any of the 3 officers or anyone on the Executive Committee to 4 find out what the status of that record was? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 6 MR. RUTH: As I understand it, you 7 believed that the membership was entitled to the 8 transactions detailed by account under the 9 authority granted on Page 7 of the 2004 Guidebook, 10 which is Article XII of the Constitution? Is that 11 what I understood you to say? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, sir. 13 MR. RUTH: Reading from that, it says, 14 "The account of the Association, previous to each 15 Annual Meeting, shall be audited by a Certified 16 Public Accountant appointed by the President. 17 Such audit shall include an inventory of all 18 property belonging to the Association, and such 19 audit and inventory shall be mailed by the 20 secretary-treasurer to any Member upon request of 21 said Member." 22 Do you agree with that? 23 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I believe this 24 information was part of the audit. 25 MR. RUTH: So now you are saying you 217 1 think it was part of the transactions detailed by 2 the accountant was part of the audit? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 4 MR. RUTH: Why do you believe that? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I believe that 6 ADGA has an audit completed the first of the year, 7 and this was a completed document. I am sure that 8 it was part of the audit. 9 MR. RUTH: What steps did you take to 10 determine what records of the Association a member 11 is entitled to receive before posting this 12 information in October, 2004? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I talked to Mr. 14 Beauvais and he gave me the case law that pertains 15 to that. He said that he gave me that advice, and 16 I based it on that as well as the information I 17 got from ADGA. 18 MR. RUTH: Mr. Beauvais was representing 19 the American Dairy Goat Association? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, he was 21 representing me. 22 MR. RUTH: As the secretary-treasurer of 23 the Association at the time that you published 24 this information on the Web site -- 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Secretary-treasurer. 218 1 MR. RUTH: -- did he hold that position? 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 3 MR. RUTH: And did you understand that 4 audited records to be furnished to a member were 5 to be done only upon a request of the member made 6 to the secretary-treasurer? 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't guess I 8 understand your question. 9 MR. RUTH: Did you understand that in 10 providing records of this Association to a member, 11 that under the rules of your Constitution and 12 Bylaws, that the member was to make a request, and 13 it was to be made out by the secretary-treasurer 14 upon the request of the member? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: We were told to -- we 16 had members that told us that they were told to 17 get it from their Director. 18 MR. RUTH: Did you understand that under 19 the applicable Constitution, Bylaws and the laws 20 of the State of Missouri under which the 21 Association is created, that there is a two-part 22 requirement for a member of the Board before being 23 entitled to any record of the Association? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I don't know 25 that. 219 1 MR. RUTH: Did you ever look at your Web 2 site, Mr. Goddard, that is after this was up, 3 www.dairygoatcheckregister.com? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Could you repeat the 5 question? 6 MR. RUTH: Did you ever look at your Web 7 site www.dairygoatcheckregister.com? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Could you repeat the 9 question? 10 MR. RUTH: Did you ever look at your Web 11 site www.dairygoatcheckregister.com after it was 12 posted on the Internet? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I may have gone and 14 looked at the front page. 15 MR. RUTH: And would Exhibit No. 7 in 16 the book in front of you be thumbnail sketches of 17 the pages that were caused to be posted on the 18 Internet? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: It looks like it was, 20 yes. 21 MR. RUTH: When you asked the 22 transactions detailed by account be posted on the 23 Web, did you know there was a confidentiality 24 statement stamped on the first page of the 2003 25 transactions detailed by accounts? 220 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I read the statement, 2 but I don't believe that pertained to me or the 3 people that I was sharing the information with. I 4 believe that was intended for somebody if they 5 received that information by mistake or in error. 6 MR. RUTH: As a Director, it is your 7 testimony it was your understanding that in 8 October, 2004, that the language of the 9 confidentiality statement did not apply to your 10 situation where you were distributing that to the 11 members of the Association; is that correct? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That is correct. 13 MR. RUTH: Did it apply to you that if 14 you were distributing that information to any non- 15 member? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I don't believe 17 it applied to me. 18 MR. RUTH: No matter who you gave it to? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 20 MR. RUTH: At the time you posted this 21 on the Web site, did you believe that you could 22 and should make the transaction detailed by 23 account and give it to any person that you might 24 run into in your hometown? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, that wasn't my 221 1 intention, that wasn't my purpose. 2 MR. RUTH: Okay. Do you know what www 3 stands for? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Not exactly. 5 MR. RUTH: Would you agree with me it 6 stands for the worldwide web? 7 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 8 MR. RUTH: And do you understand that 9 the manner in which you had this posted, this 10 information, during the time it was up, was 11 accessible to anyone in the entire world who had 12 Internet access? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I only 14 advertised it on my list, which has about 500 15 members on it. 16 MR. RUTH: Did you understand that 17 anyone with Internet access in the entire world 18 could access your dairygoatcheckregister.com Web 19 site? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: They could only if 21 they had been members of my list, the dairy goat 22 operators, and had been able to obtain the address 23 to go in and access it. 24 MR. RUTH: Do you know about any search 25 when you asked this be published? 222 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 2 MR. RUTH: Did you have any discussions 3 with Danielle Westbank about protecting the Web 4 site you had created by use of a password? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 6 MR. RUTH: Do you have any knowledge 7 whether a password was implemented that was 8 available only to District V members of the 9 Association? 10 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 11 MR. RUTH: Do you have knowledge that 12 between October 22, 2004, and October 29, 2004, 13 that there were 222 hits on your site? 14 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 15 MR. RUTH: Did you know the Finance 16 Committee, in response to the posting of the 17 transactions detailed by account in 2003, took 18 certain actions regarding certain accounts? 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I didn't hear the 20 first part of your question. 21 MR. RUTH: Did you know that the Finance 22 Committee, upon learning about the transactions 23 detailed by account being posted on the Web site, 24 took certain actions to cancel certain accounts 25 and credit cards? 223 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I am not sure exactly 2 what the Finance Committee did. 3 MR. RUTH: Okay. Through your 4 participation in the meeting last year, 2004, you 5 did not become aware of that? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, they said they 7 cancelled some credit cards, but I am not sure 8 what they were. I am not privy to that 9 information. 10 MR. RUTH: Would you look at Exhibit 8 11 and go to the thirteenth page? The page numbers 12 are not very well defined, so you will have to 13 just count over. 14 MR. TOFLE: Is that starting with 15 $4,108.02? 16 MR. RUTH: I am sorry. I misspoke. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: It says Page 20 at the 18 bottom of it. The top it starts off with Account 19 No. 8652, Director's stipend, $20,695.75. 20 MR. RUTH: Have you found that page, Mr. 21 Goddard? 22 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Not yet. 23 MR. RUTH: Do you see that? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, we are on Page 25 20. 224 1 MR. RUTH: Do you see Account 8653, 2 Hotel Charges? 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes, I do. 4 MR. RUTH: Can you explain to me what 5 that note Merrill Lynch working means? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I have no idea. 7 MR. RUTH: You don't know what that is? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 9 MR. RUTH: Can you tell me what the 10 account numbers will allow you to do with regard 11 to the Merrill Lynch account? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That is a checking 13 account number. 14 MR. RUTH: It is your testimony that you 15 don't know what the account is? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that is a 17 checking account number. 18 MR. RUTH: Okay. Do you know that for 19 sure? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe so, yes. 21 MR. RUTH: What do you base that on? 22 MR. TOFLE: Well, I can answer that we 23 called Merrill Lynch and asked them, and that is 24 what they said. 25 MR. RUTH: When did you do that, Marvin? 225 1 MR. TOFLE: Several weeks ago. 2 MR. RUTH: You had not done that before 3 you posted it, Mr. Goddard; is that correct? 4 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That is correct. 5 MR. RUTH: Did you find any open account 6 vendor's numbers when you reviewed the transaction 7 by detail that you had posted on the Internet? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Account numbers? 9 MR. RUTH: Open account numbers, open 10 invoice numbers. 11 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, the only way 12 that an invoice number would be a benefit to 13 anybody is if they wanted to pay the bills. 14 MR. RUTH: That's what you thought when 15 you posted it? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 17 MR. RUTH: Explain to me again, on 18 Tuesday, is that Tuesday the day that you think 19 that there was some negotiations going on between 20 Mr. Beauvais and Mr. Dalton? 21 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that is 22 correct, yes. 23 MR. RUTH: And what was it that they 24 were negotiating? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I believe that was 226 1 the day that Dan Considine called Mr. Beauvais and 2 had him call Mr. Dalton. 3 MR. RUTH: What was your understanding 4 was the purpose? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: To negotiate a 6 compromise and work out the deal on taking the 7 check register down. 8 MR. RUTH: What was left to negotiate? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Nothing as far as I 10 know, except that Mr. Considine kept saying they 11 were going to file charges against me, and he said 12 they would see if they couldn't have the attorneys 13 work it out, and they did. 14 MR. RUTH: Were you representing to them 15 on Tuesday that you had not taken down your 16 Internet posting? 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Represented to whom? 18 MR. RUTH: To anybody, Dan Considine, 19 the Executive Committee, any Board members. 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I sent them a letter 21 Tuesday morning. 22 MR. RUTH: Okay. And this was after you 23 had already shut down your Web site? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 25 MR. RUTH: Is that your testimony? 227 1 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 2 MR. RUTH: And in that letter to Mr. 3 Considine, didn't you tell him that at the 4 earliest possible moment you would temporarily 5 withdraw the Web site at such time when the ADGA 6 office has identified those credit cards and 7 accounts in your request? 8 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 9 MR. RUTH: You were not present during 10 any discussions between Mr. Beauvais and Mr. 11 Dalton; is that correct? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That is correct. 13 MR. RUTH: You knew before you went to 14 the Annual Meeting of 2004 held in Albuquerque, 15 that the Board of Directors had expressed the 16 opinion, had expressed a thought that there was 17 nothing that prevented further action from being 18 taken against you by ADGA after the Annual Meeting 19 was over with; is that true? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: They were not going 21 to take any action on me after it was over? 22 MR. RUTH: Were you aware before you 23 left the Annual Meeting it was the position of the 24 Board that nothing had happened at ADGA's Annual 25 Meeting, 2004, that would prevent someone from 228 1 filing a complaint against you? 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I wasn't aware of 3 that. That was not my understanding. 4 MR. RUTH: Were you not in attendance at 5 the various meetings held during the week? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 7 MR. RUTH: Will you turn to Exhibit No. 8 11, the meeting held on October 29, 2004. On Page 9 797 of the transcript, you would acknowledge that 10 you voiced your presence at that meeting? 11 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 12 MR. RUTH: Do you recall a question by 13 Director Altheide that said with acceptance of 14 this statement is preventing a member from taking 15 any action against Mr. Goddard, and Ms. Saum 16 responding, "I don't believe so." 17 Mr. Considine, on Page 867, 868 says, 18 "Right. Nothing here in this action deals with 19 any kind of discipline or any kind of legal action 20 at all. What we had been trying to do is to have 21 the two attorneys work out an understanding. That 22 part of the understanding we have accepted, but 23 the rest of what we wanted we could not get 24 between the attorneys, but we did all agree there 25 would be no disciplinary action brought at this 229 1 time. If there is need of one, it would be done 2 through channels at a later date." 3 Do you remember those discussions during 4 your attendance at that meeting? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't have any 6 personal recollection of it, no. 7 PRESIDENT SAUM: I think John is 8 finishing up on what he wants to ask. Is there 9 anybody on the Board that wants to ask anything of 10 Noah right now? 11 Gustafson. 12 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: Yes. I have a 13 question regarding the information that was sent 14 to us by Mr. Goddard's material and letter of 15 December 9, 2004, from the office of Tofle, 16 Oxenhandler & Hajicek. I am sorry. I am not able 17 to pronounce that right. It is H-a-j-i-c-e-k. 18 In that letter, on Page 26, there are 19 two lines, and in there it says in the next 20 paragraph, and I will let everybody go ahead and 21 read this. It says Danielle Westbank, who was the 22 Web master in Arkansas, he called her and asked if 23 he could hire her to go on the Web site and do a 24 rush job for him. 25 She said she could do the job and Noah 230 1 agreed to the charges for her services and the 2 2003 transactions detailed register was posted. 3 It says the job was more expensive than he had 4 anticipated, so he only had her put up one year. 5 He thought the most recent year would likely deal 6 with the appropriate feedback. 7 From this, it is inferred that the 8 original intention was to put up more than one 9 year, to put up all of them, but due to the 10 expense only one was put up. I would like to hear 11 Mr. Goddard's response to that. 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: What is your 13 question? 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: I believe her question 15 is the intent, as she reads it, was the intent to 16 put up more years than 2003, but the cost was 17 prohibitive You have stated other times that that 18 is not the case. 19 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That is not the case. 20 I never intended to put up more than one year. 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Ms. Gustafson. 22 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: I would like an 23 explanation of the sentence in this letter from 24 your attorney, that is the job was more expensive 25 than he anticipated, so he had her only put up the 231 1 one year. 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't know why he 3 wrote that. 4 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: This is information 5 that you furnished to us. 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I don't know. 7 I guess you can ask Mr. Tofle. I don't know why 8 he wrote that. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle, would you 10 like to state why you wrote that in response to 11 Ms. Gustafson's question? 12 MR. TOFLE: Well, they may have 13 misunderstood. That is how I put it. I guess it 14 should have been numerously, when I talked to him, 15 he told me that there was additional information 16 on everyone, the number, so I guess I didn't put 17 all the reasons in there. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Gustafson, does that 19 answer your question, or do you have a follow-up? 20 DIRECTOR GUSTAFSON: Prior to 21 contracting this job, was the original intent to 22 put all of the years up if it was not cost- 23 prohibitive, as inferred in this statement? 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Goddard. 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, I can't hear 232 1 her real clear, but I have already testified there 2 was no intention to put up more than one year. I 3 did say that I wanted to put up 2004 instead of 4 2003. 2004 was not provided to me. 5 I think in one of the previous e-mails, 6 you said that is what I would get, was 2004 up to 7 date. That is what I wanted, which I thought 8 would be more effective because it was less stale 9 than the previous years. But there was no intent 10 or no reason to put up the three previous years 11 because that was stale information. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell, do you have a 13 question? 14 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: No. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: She has changed her 16 mind. Does anybody else have any questions at 17 this time? 18 Altheide. 19 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Yes, I have two 20 questions. One, when you received the report with 21 the confidential statement on it, did you contact 22 anyone on the Executive Committee, or anyone on 23 the Board to seek clarification as to who that was 24 referring to? 25 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 233 1 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: The second question, 2 as a member of the Board of Directors, did you 3 participate in the complaint hearing at the 1999 4 Board meeting in Columbus, Ohio, with Robin from 5 District No. VII, and at that time did you detail 6 the financial part of the business involved in 7 filling out a show report and the increases to a 8 show? Did you describe the financial harm that 9 this caused the Association, and do you recall 10 following that they be removed from the 11 Association? 12 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I don't understand 13 what you mean by this. Can you be a little more 14 specific? 15 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Well, unfortunately, 16 the member requested a closed hearing, so it is 17 hard to be a little more specific. However, one 18 of the points made repeatedly today is that there 19 has been no financial harm to the Association. 20 That is the point I disagree with 21 because at that time it had value. In 1999, the 22 Board dealt with a complaint involving a member 23 for her conduct as a show official, that there was 24 no financial harm to the Association. 25 But at that time, those who were on the 234 1 Board at that time can attest to the fact that you 2 argued rather strongly that she be removed from 3 the Association. 4 Do you recall that? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Well, first of all, I 6 am going to strongly object on relevance, but I 7 have no recollection of making any such argument, 8 George. 9 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: Thank you. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Any questions at 11 this time? We have been here for quite some time. 12 Does anybody have any objection if we take a 13 little recess and do whatever needs to be done? 14 It is 3:30. We will have ten minutes. Joan Rowe 15 is saying five. We will take five. 16 (RECESS.) 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: If the Directors will 18 take their seats, please. We are over the five 19 minutes. I think we have been generous with it. 20 I think we are all back. 21 Okay. Mr. Tofle, do you have any more 22 witnesses or Mr. Goddard, that you would like to 23 have address the complaint at this time? 24 MR. TOFLE: I do. I would like to just 25 go over some things Mr. Ruth raised with Mr. 235 1 Goddard very briefly. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: All right. 3 MR. TOFLE: I have something after that. 4 Mr. Goddard, Mr. Ruth asked you some 5 questions about the audit? 6 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 7 MR. TOFLE: What does the Constitution 8 provide about the audit; what does it say? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: That the accounts 10 will be audited. 11 MR. TOFLE: Okay. What accounts are 12 those? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: The ADGA accounts. 14 MR. TOFLE: And all members would have 15 access to the accounts audited and the inventory? 16 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 17 MR. TOFLE: And in regards to the 2002 18 check register, what did you think those accounts 19 were? 20 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Audited accounts. 21 MR. TOFLE: Those were the accounts that 22 they were auditing in accordance with the 23 Constitution? 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 25 MR. TOFLE: And I think Mr. Ruth was 236 1 asking you about the exchange of the letters 2 between Mr. Beauvais and Mr. Dalton. I think he 3 pointed out that the Board had accepted a part of 4 the arrangements set out in the letter, correct? 5 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Correct. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, are you aware of 7 any contact where you have accepted what part you 8 want and not accept the other part? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No. 10 MR. TOFLE: Okay. But the Board 11 attempted to accept the part of the letter they 12 wanted and rejected the other part? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Yes. 14 MR. TOFLE: That is all I have to ask 15 you. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Does anybody have 17 anything they want to ask? 18 Hendrickson. 19 DIRECTOR HENDRICKSON: I don't remember 20 the Board accepting any part of any of the letters 21 between the two attorneys. I don't believe the 22 Board saw either of those. 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: There was no letter. 24 DIRECTOR GODDARD: There was not Board 25 action in the minutes. To make it clear for the 237 1 minutes, it was not Board action. 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: That is correct. Any 3 other questions? All right. 4 Mr. Tofle, your next witness. 5 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. I have some 6 statutes and federal information under the 7 Internal Revenue Code I would like to hand out. 8 These are statutes providing the Missouri not-for- 9 profit law and some information regarding exempt 10 organizations and what public disclosure is to be 11 made. 12 I would just like to point out under 13 Missouri law there is certain information that is 14 required to be produced to a member on request, 15 and under federal law, the Internal Revenue Code, 16 there is information that is required to be 17 distributed to anyone, not just a member or 18 Director, but anyone in the whole world that 19 requests it. 20 I would like to provide you with this 21 information so that you will have that when you 22 consider this. When that is passed around, I have 23 another witness I would like to call. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Go ahead and call your 25 witness while they are passing it out in the 238 1 essence of time. 2 Will you state your name for the court 3 reporter, please? 4 MR. SILL: My name is David Sill. S-i- 5 l-l. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. 7 MR. TOFLE: Dave, where do you live? 8 MR. SILL: I live in Columbia, Missouri. 9 MR. TOFLE: Are you employed? 10 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 11 MR. TOFLE: And by whom? 12 MR. SILL: By Socket Internet Services. 13 MR. TOFLE: What is Socket Internet 14 Services? 15 MR. SILL: They are an Internet provider 16 and a telephone company. 17 MR. TOFLE: How many customers does 18 Socket have? 19 MR. SILL: I can't speak for that 20 directly, but personally I manage an e-mail system 21 for our company that has 35,000 addresses. So, 22 some people have more than one address. So that 23 is a good, good estimate. 24 MR. TOFLE: About 35,000 customers? 25 MR. SILL: Yes. 239 1 MR. TOFLE: What services does Socket 2 Internet Services provide? 3 MR. SILL: We provide a silent Internet 4 Web host, Internet hosting subscriber line and 5 mobile long-distance phone service. 6 MR. TOFLE: How long have you been with 7 Socket? 8 MR. SILL: Since January, 1998. It will 9 be seven years. 10 MR. TOFLE: Have you had experience in 11 the Internet Computer Privacy Act? 12 MR. SILL: Yes, sir, I have worked in 13 the industry for two years prior to starting with 14 them, and I have been involved in that two years 15 before. 16 MR. TOFLE: What is your job at Socket? 17 MR. SILL: I am the service server that 18 provides webbing and e-mail services and 19 dedication services and logging in. 20 MR. TOFLE: With respect to these 21 servers, where do you get them? 22 MR. SILL: I actually build them. 23 MR. TOFLE: You built them? 24 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 25 MR. TOFLE: All right. And is that 240 1 because the servers that Socket needs actually 2 existed? 3 MR. SILL: No, it is a cost of any 4 measure. We buy parts, put everything together 5 and do the software. 6 MR. TOFLE: Do you write software? 7 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 8 MR. TOFLE: And what other duties do you 9 have in your job? 10 MR. SILL: I also make security for the 11 network. I make sure that they have not 12 compromised any accounts. I work with law 13 enforcement and attorneys when investigating a 14 problem of one of our users or one of our users 15 had a legal problem. 16 MR. TOFLE: When you say you work with 17 attorneys, has anybody ever asked you to appear in 18 court or a hearing like this before I asked you? 19 MR. SILL: No, sir, this is the first 20 time. 21 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And you are saying 22 that you work with attorneys in the sense of 23 someone uses a site of the Internet and call the 24 product to your attention, or something like that? 25 MR. SILL: Yes, if one of our users 241 1 would prove they weren't doing a specific thing on 2 line at a certain time, something like that. 3 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, have you 4 worked with state law enforcement? 5 MR. SILL: Yes, sir, I have worked with 6 state law enforcement, local law enforcement and 7 federal. 8 MR. TOFLE: Did you work with the FBI? 9 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 10 MR. TOFLE: And how much of your time or 11 what part of your job is devoted to working on 12 security matters with respect to these 35,000 13 customers of Socket? 14 MR. SILL: I would say about a fifth of 15 my job is with security. 16 MR. TOFLE: You have worked with the FBI 17 on a number of occasions? 18 MR. SILL: Yes. 19 MR. TOFLE: And you have worked with 20 local and state law enforcement? 21 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 22 MR. TOFLE: Now, I asked you to come 23 here today to testify regarding these matters 24 regarding Noah Goddard? 25 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 242 1 MR. TOFLE: In anticipation of that, did 2 I give you some documents to look over and review? 3 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 4 MR. TOFLE: What did I give you to look 5 over? 6 MR. SILL: I received a copy of the 2003 7 transaction bills by account, a copy of several 8 excerpts from the 2004 Board of Directors' 9 meeting, and a statement by Danielle Westbank. 10 MR. TOFLE: Did I give you some e-mails 11 regarding that that came from Linda Campbell? 12 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 13 MR. TOFLE: The e-mails, these are 14 documents that were provided to all Board members. 15 Now, what did I ask you to do? 16 MR. SILL: You asked me to go over this 17 information and try to ascertain what the possible 18 liability was from the transaction account by 19 account, and also to cover the technical details 20 of the principles of the Web site. 21 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, first, I 22 wanted to ask, did you look into what happened in 23 connection with Mr. Goddard's efforts to take the 24 Web site down on Monday, October 25th? 25 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. I read through the 243 1 statement given by Ms. Westbank, and in my opinion 2 she removed all the other files from the Web site 3 on Monday morning. 4 MR. TOFLE: That was adequate to remove 5 it from the www.? 6 MR. SILL: Yes. 7 MR. TOFLE: And at that point, would 8 there have been anything there on the Web site? 9 MR. SILL: No, there wouldn't have been 10 anything on the Web site. 11 MR. TOFLE: All right. Did you do any 12 further investigation to see if there had been 13 information on that Web site that was available? 14 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. I looked in 15 several places on the Internet and copies of Web 16 sites were there, were for comparison purposes. 17 MR. TOFLE: These sites, or they say a 18 copy of, every document or attempted document, 19 they say every document on the Internet? 20 MR. SILL: That is correct. 21 MR. TOFLE: And what did you find? 22 MR. SILL: I found that nowhere in a 23 search by Google the documents still available on 24 line. 25 MR. TOFLE: Google would be the main 244 1 source for that? 2 MR. SILL: That is correct. That is one 3 of the largest ones on the Internet. 4 MR. TOFLE: Did you check any others? 5 MR. SILL: Yes, sir, the other really 6 big one is Archives Alert, and it did not contain 7 any copies of this type. 8 MR. TOFLE: And had these copies been 9 passed around on the Internet, would that pick it 10 up also? 11 MR. SILL: Probably if these documents 12 were anywhere on line, I would have found them. 13 MR. TOFLE: So they are not passed by 14 Google or the main site you found? 15 MR. SILL: That is correct. 16 MR. TOFLE: What does that mean? 17 MR. SILL: That means that it is very 18 unlikely at this point that anyone would find 19 these documents, find the transactions by account 20 number. 21 MR. TOFLE: All right. What about from 22 the day it was posted until today? 23 MR. SILL: Well, the actual site was put 24 up, I believe, on the 21st, and then taken down on 25 the 25th. So, basically, what I am saying none of 245 1 these archival systems would have picked up this 2 data in that time. And the Web page itself, 3 through the uniformal resource, was only sent to a 4 mailing list in Mr. Goddard's district. 5 So, since the page was not linked to 6 other Web sites, it is very unlikely that this 7 circuit would have picked it up at all, and if 8 they had they would probably have been of low 9 importance and would not have shown up here. 10 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, it has been 11 said that during the Board meeting in October, 12 2004, that people were still able to access it at 13 that time. Is there any way that this would be 14 possible? 15 MR. SILL: Well, after the site was 16 actually removed, after the files were removed 17 from the Web site itself, it is really only one 18 way that the data would still be available. That 19 is if someone on the site with us had wanted their 20 Web browser at the site and viewed it, and then 21 the computer could have saved a copy of the files 22 locally, and when they went back to the Web page, 23 in certain circumstances it appears at this time 24 that they were still there. 25 MR. TOFLE: Is that also called 246 1 captioning? 2 MR. SILL: Yes. 3 MR. TOFLE: Fine. But as far as Mr. 4 Goddard knew, the site was down as of October 5 25th? 6 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 7 MR. TOFLE: All right. Now, it has been 8 said there are computer programs that will go out 9 and search the Internet and work day and night and 10 look for various numbers, and try to find these 11 numbers, and somehow track down credit card 12 numbers and, therefore, track down the credit card 13 numbers contained in the 2003 check register. 14 Did I ask you to look at that and 15 evaluate that? 16 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. Basically, these 17 documents were presented on the Internet in the 18 form of images. This is like taking a picture of 19 your house and putting it on line. So the actual 20 test of the document itself is not observable. 21 What it will require is some sort of 22 system to find these images somehow, and then 23 extract the text from the program with an optical 24 recognition program. There are programs that do 25 do this on a small scale that you get in 247 1 libraries, extra catalogues. But it is really no 2 means for doing that. 3 MR. TOFLE: Now, if a person had one of 4 these programs, how would you go about -- how 5 would some person go about trying to locate 6 documents that had potential credit card numbers 7 on them? 8 MR. SILL: Sure. Well, basically most 9 hackers are going to use Google to search for a 10 page that has potentially any information in it. 11 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 12 MR. SILL: Since these pages don't show 13 up in Google, the only individual here is 14 commenting on the matter, very unlikely that they 15 would have got it. 16 MR. TOFLE: What I am asking you is how 17 would you make a search to find the document? How 18 would someone make a search to find documents that 19 contained credit card numbers? If I got someone's 20 credit card number and charged something to that, 21 how would someone go about doing that? 22 MR. SILL: There are a couple of 23 different ways that people steal credit cards. 24 Online, you are either going to search for files, 25 specific files containing credit card numbers. 248 1 You are going to search for credit card numbers 2 and search for final type of spreadsheets, for 3 instance. 4 You are going to look for spreadsheets 5 for a corporation that has all of their credit 6 card numbers in one file. You maybe would find a 7 site that accepts credit cards for payment and 8 then trick that Web site to give you the credit 9 card number for someone that has bought something. 10 Those are the two most online examples. 11 MR. TOFLE: If you want to order 12 something from Amazon.com, that is a site that 13 accepts credit card numbers? 14 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 15 MR. TOFLE: Is that what you are saying, 16 you go to a site that takes credit card numbers 17 and try to somehow try to get it to give it back 18 to you? 19 MR. SILL: That's right. 20 MR. TOFLE: And could you design one of 21 these programs that is on the Web, design some 22 kind of search to search out documents that have 23 credit cards or credit card numbers? 24 MR. SILL: I mean, it is entirely 25 possible to write something that would, you know, 249 1 have a number of search terms and try to come up 2 with something with the documents. This document 3 and this file may not be indexable, and you have 4 to look at it or you will have to spend a lot of 5 computer time. 6 Also, it is when many pages, so you know 7 when one big file is more likely to deal with the 8 information and qualify. The pile also looks like 9 the computer doesn't know until it is properly 10 coded, unless it has in it the text. More than 11 likely, the numbers entered on the Internet, that 12 will come up. 13 MR. TOFLE: This is developed by charge, 14 a credit card, and search for a number or 15 whatever. How many documents that you know of 16 would the program come up with? 17 MR. SILL: Millions. 18 MR. TOFLE: Many? 19 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 20 MR. TOFLE: And would the program on its 21 own then be able to locate, say, for example, on 22 this Exhibit 2003 checklist, could the program on 23 its own find that on that document? 24 MR. SILL: It is incredibly unlikely. 25 MR. TOFLE: Are you saying that it can 250 1 be in your file? 2 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 3 MR. TOFLE: So the program, that is 4 smart enough to see what is actually written 5 there? 6 MR. SILL: Well, this is a high-type 7 program anyway, and folks that are writing this 8 complicated program is going to do that, yes, sir. 9 MR. TOFLE: Now, even if there were such 10 a program and they could pull up your name and 11 document that might have potentially have credit 12 card numbers on it, and one of those documents 13 then might include the 2003 check register? 14 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 15 MR. TOFLE: And could anybody discern 16 any information from that without a human being 17 looking at these zillion of papers? 18 MR. SILL: No. Even a person would have 19 to look at these pages. 20 MR. TOFLE: So, a person would have to 21 intervene, the computer might bring up millions of 22 potential sites to look at, but a person would 23 have to look at it to get the information? 24 MR. SILL: That is correct. 25 MR. TOFLE: All right. So it would take 251 1 a long time to look at millions of pages for 2 someone to find this information? 3 MR. SILL: That is correct. 4 MR. TOFLE: Even if they could find this 5 on the Internet? 6 MR. SILL: That's right. It is very 7 unlikely this was actually indexed. 8 MR. TOFLE: You don't think it was 9 ever -- Mr. Ruth said it was available to the 10 worldwide, but you don't think it actually is 11 available to the whole world? 12 MR. SILL: I don't think this was ever 13 searchable. You would have to have the actual 14 address and type it in. 15 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, let me ask you 16 this. Say, for example, someone got ahold of this 17 check register somehow, even if that happened, 18 although you say it is pretty unlikely, and they 19 see the name Lelia Berry and some numbers. 20 Would there be a risk here? 21 MR. SILL: Actually not. If you look at 22 the transaction by account, one actually has 23 to -- 24 MR. TOFLE: What page is that? Do you 25 have a page for that? 252 1 MR. SILL: It is actually on Page 13. 2 MR. TOFLE: Okay. And how did you 3 analyze what is there on Page 13? 4 MR. SILL: Okay. Well, basically, what 5 we have here are apparently these last four digit 6 numbers of the credit card, then the name and then 7 a partial name of the issuing organization. So 8 most modern credit cards are 16-digit long 9 numbers. 10 So we are left with after probably the 11 last one, we don't know for sure, is 12-number 12 digits. Now, what this can tell us, if we have 13 the proper connection with the inter-world that we 14 have talked to people with credit cards, we may 15 figure out the first six digits, the type of card 16 and issuing, maybe the first six digits of the 17 credit card. 18 If we have those first six digits by 19 some means, and then we also have the last four 20 digits, we are still left with six digits. So I 21 am not asking that, I don't care, but this is 22 fairly straightforward we have six digits and that 23 is a million possible numbers. That is a million 24 to five, 00000009999. 25 MR. TOFLE: So, if a person has the name 253 1 of Lelia Berry, if they had this particular bank, 2 EBC, whatever that is, and if they had those four 3 numbers they would still be one in a million 4 chance to find her particular credit card number? 5 MR. SILL: Actually, it is a little more 6 complicated. There is not a good algorithm. What 7 this does is protect against casual use of credit 8 card numbers. So you have a 16-digit number. 9 Only one in ten of these possible ten-digit 10 numbers is a valid credit card number. 11 So what this does, we have 900,000 out 12 of the possible combination. This gives us 13 100,000 possible credit card numbers. 14 MR. TOFLE: Then there is another 15 100,000 possibilities? 16 MR. SILL: Unless you include the end 17 date on the credit card and the first date. 18 MR. TOFLE: That is part of the 19 calculation also? 20 MR. SILL: Yes. Most cards, this is 21 three years out, so some business cards can be 22 four. But, say, three years out, that is 36 23 months where this card can expire. You multiply 24 your 100,000 times 36, and you know that is 3.6 25 million. 254 1 MR. TOFLE: So it would be 3.6 million 2 chances to discern the credit card of Lelia Berry? 3 MR. SILL: That's right. If you went to 4 the Internet, as opposed to a physical store, you 5 would also have to determine the CDD, which if you 6 are familiar with this three-digit number, that is 7 printed on the signature strip of your credit 8 card. 9 MR. TOFLE: Now, what does that do to 10 the calculation? 11 MR. SILL: Basically, this number isn't 12 involved and it becomes an impression, and it is 13 not chosen in your magnetic strip card. It is a 14 three-digit number that is a space of 1,000 15 numbers, and then 3.6 billion. 16 MR. TOFLE: It would take 3.6 billion 17 opportunities to come up with really Lelia Berry's 18 credit card number? 19 MR. SILL: That's correct. 20 MR. TOFLE: And harm or damage her 21 assets? 22 MR. SILL: Correct. 23 MR. TOFLE: So what if somebody got a 24 program and then programmed it in one day or 25 night, and then go to Amazon.com and just started 255 1 from No. 1 and used 3.6 billion permentations, and 2 when they get the right credit card number order 3 on Amazon.com? 4 MR. SILL: Well, that is not like that. 5 The basic problem with that is not only vendors, 6 people that are accepting these credit cards, they 7 will notice it. If you put in an invalid credit 8 card, the credit card clearinghouse is the one 9 that deals with the vendors and reconciles the 10 charges with the issuing bank. They are going to 11 notice this as well. They will notice it and call 12 the FBI. 13 MR. TOFLE: So how many times would 14 these sites allow a person to put in a credit card 15 number and try it? 16 MR. SILL: Well, it depends on the 17 application. It depends on the Web site and it 18 depends on a number of things. 19 MR. TOFLE: What would be a range? 20 MR. SILL: I would guess anywhere from 5 21 to 1,000. 22 MR. TOFLE: Okay. 23 MR. SILL: In addition to that, if you 24 are going to run it in any kind of expeditious 25 manner, you are going to cause a huge load of the 256 1 Web site that you are attempting to charge things 2 on, so you get into that Web site and probably 3 that as well will find no valid credit cards. 4 MR. TOFLE: Maybe anybody with some 5 experience, where you take the card to the ATM, 6 and you poke in the wrong number sometimes, and it 7 takes your card away from you? 8 MR. SILL: Exactly. 9 MR. TOFLE: And a similar principle? 10 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 11 MR. TOFLE: If you don't get it right 12 after a few times, it closes down and takes the 13 card away? 14 MR. SILL: Right. 15 MR. TOFLE: And is it a fact that with 16 respect to the credit cards, if you were to 17 compare the opportunity to actually determine 18 Lelia Berry's credit card number, how would you 19 compare that to winning the lottery? 20 MR. SILL: Like the Power Ball, it is 21 about 1 in 146 million chance of winning the 22 jackpot. This is like 25 times that, of winning 23 the Power Ball 24 times in a row. 24 MR. TOFLE: I see. In order to put 25 ADGA's credit card at risk, would it be similar to 257 1 winning the Power Ball 25 times in a row? 2 MR. SILL: That is correct. 3 MR. TOFLE: It wouldn't be practical 4 that these would be at risk with these various 5 numbers on the Internet? 6 MR. SILL: No, not at all. 7 MR. TOFLE: Do you need to take a look 8 at these other numbers, different numbers and 9 different numbers? 10 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. I didn't see 11 anything technically damaging about any of the 12 account numbers. Most corporations, you have an 13 account number, you want to have some sort of 14 business transaction with them, and they are going 15 to ask for some piece of information. 16 Maybe only allowed to talk to you and a 17 specific person in the organization where they ask 18 for a security code or something like that, your 19 office phone. 20 MR. TOFLE: Okay. Now, was there some 21 issue that was raised with the software that 22 Danielle Westbank used? 23 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. I believe that Ms. 24 Campbell had sent an e-mail mentioning that she 25 had heard people using a software called 258 1 Dreamworks that had problems where they deleted a 2 file and go to a deleted file on the Web page. 3 It appears to be going to the person 4 making the changes, but it is actually put there. 5 I looked into this and I could find no actual bug 6 that was causing this problem. 7 MR. TOFLE: Now, so you have this 8 document and even if it were on the worldwide web, 9 accessible to everybody with a computer in the 10 whole world, even if that happened, the chances of 11 getting this information would likely be like 12 winning the lottery 25 times in a row? 13 MR. SILL: It is extremely unlikely. 14 MR. TOFLE: I don't have any further 15 questions. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Ruth. 17 MR. RUTH: Mr. Sill, good afternoon. 18 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 19 MR. RUTH: Do you advise the client to 20 provide the information on the Internet? 21 MR. SILL: To a certain degree, yes. 22 MR. RUTH: Do you encourage them to put 23 their health insurance account number on the 24 Internet? 25 MR. SILL: I wouldn't encourage them to 259 1 do that, no. 2 MR. RUTH: You would not encourage them 3 to do that? 4 MR. SILL: Not necessarily, no. 5 MR. RUTH: Do you encourage them to put 6 their ledger account numbers on an account, like 7 UPS or some other vendor they purchase from? 8 MR. SILL: No, I wouldn't recommend 9 that. 10 MR. RUTH: It sounds like it is okay, 11 that you would recommend somebody put the name of 12 a credit card issued to somebody with the last 13 four digits; would that be good practice? 14 MR. SILL: I would not have a problem 15 with that. In fact, the last four digits and your 16 name are on most receipts you get at the gas 17 station. 18 MR. RUTH: And you take that receipt and 19 just pass it out to strangers; do most people do 20 that? 21 MR. SILL: If it falls on the ground, I 22 would not feel uncomfortable. 23 MR. TOFLE: You wouldn't advise them 24 that would be a satisfactory business practice to 25 you? 260 1 MR. SILL: I wouldn't advise them to 2 divulge information they don't have to, but I am 3 saying I don't believe that there is a problem. 4 MR. RUTH: That is my point. You 5 wouldn't advise them that would be a good 6 practice? 7 MR. SILL: No, sir. 8 MR. RUTH: Let me take you back to 9 October, 2004, the 25th. As I understand it, that 10 was a Monday? 11 MR. SILL: Okay. 12 MR. RUTH: And the information that you 13 received, do you understand that the Web master 14 took the Web site down at that time? 15 MR. SILL: That is correct. I believe 16 the evening of the 25th. 17 MR. RUTH: Now, if someone on the spot 18 on Friday, the 29th of October, having cleared out 19 any temporary text on an individual computer was 20 able to go out and access a page that Mr. Goddard 21 posted, would there be an explanation for that? 22 MR. SILL: As far as I am concerned, the 23 only possible explanation would be that it was 24 computer error. I know of no mechanism that would 25 allow it. 261 1 MR. RUTH: The user error would be what? 2 MR. SILL: Maybe the person didn't 3 actually clear the text, and maybe they are 4 connected to a proxy served through the browser. 5 Maybe their Internet provider knew that they 6 didn't change the problem, and that the documents 7 were there for a few days. That is entirely 8 possible. 9 MR. RUTH: It could be that the page is 10 still on the Web site? 11 MR. SILL: No, not by then. 12 MR. RUTH: And would there be some way 13 for you to check to see if it were taken out? 14 MR. SILL: No. Any logs that would 15 provide anything like that are gone at this point. 16 MR. RUTH: But if you assumed there 17 wasn't operator error, then another explanation 18 would be that the Web site was still up and 19 active? 20 MR. SILL: Assuming there was no user 21 error, and these symptoms actually occurred, 22 someone actually took a fresh, clean computer and 23 accessed the Web site with no proxy servers after 24 it was supposedly taken down, then I would say, 25 yes, the only possible explanation would be that 262 1 it was left up. 2 MR. RUTH: Okay. Thank you, sir. 3 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Anybody have any 5 other questions for this person? Several. 6 Morris. 7 DIRECTOR MORRIS: You stated that near 8 the top of any search you couldn't find a result. 9 Does that not mean it could not be at the bottom 10 of the searching, and it is still possible to be 11 there at the bottom somewhere? 12 MR. SILL: It could still be there. You 13 know what, if someone actually typed in another 14 message of another Association's transaction 15 account in 2003, and it was actually up in the 16 index by Google, but I don't think it was. 17 PRESIDENT SAUM: Bryan. 18 DIRECTOR BRYAN I have two questions. 19 Do you think that Mr. Goddard knew when he 20 authorized this site to be put up that it could 21 not be searched? 22 MR. SILL: I believe that was his 23 intent. I believe by my testing the address of 24 the site to specific groups, which contains 25 members of the organization, it only showed it for 263 1 your organization. 2 DIRECTOR BRYAN: You think he knew that 3 and that was it? 4 MR. SILL: I believe that was his 5 intent. 6 DIRECTOR BRYAN: Okay. When you do 7 search for these items, how long was it after the 8 transaction? 9 MR. SILL: It was recently. It was 10 three weeks ago, perhaps. 11 DIRECTOR BRYAN: Thank you. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Rucker. 13 DIRECTOR RUCKER: How customary is it 14 for a person with a telephone to set up a Web site 15 with false information? 16 MR. SILL: Very common. Most start with 17 Identification Protection Service, where they 18 register the domain under their name and give 19 their contact information. If there is a subpoena 20 or legal problem, the law enforcement officials 21 can contact the registrar that will forward the 22 information to prevent casual use and personal 23 attacks. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Dean. 25 DIRECTOR DEAN: I appreciate the large 264 1 numbers of chances that you were giving. Were you 2 trying to imply that identity theft does not 3 occur? 4 MR. SILL: Oh, absolutely not. I am 5 saying this is a very unlikely thing. 6 DIRECTOR DEAN: But it does occur? 7 MR. SILL: Absolutely. 8 DIRECTOR DEAN: Thank you. 9 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell. 10 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: So I can read my 11 point, I would appreciate it if I could sit back 12 down. I have a couple of questions, Mr. Sill. 13 In the statements you made, did you 14 indicate that you reviewed the server log on the 15 25th? 16 MR. SILL: No, I have not reviewed any 17 of the server logs. 18 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: You actually did not 19 look at the server log to see if the files were 20 removed? 21 MR. SILL: That is correct. 22 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Well, let's see, 23 with regard to the point that Mr. Rucker made, it 24 is not uncommon in putting in a different 25 ownership. That is a little different. That is a 265 1 fine point, I understand, and I think identity 2 control is something you want to look at. 3 But a fictitious name, that is the 4 broken code that was listed in the ownership. 5 That is just a point of observation. So you 6 didn't really look at the server log, and there 7 were a number of people, not just myself, who were 8 able to access these files that were obsolete, but 9 they were clearly going through the image, and you 10 can pull those up. 11 These, I personally wanted to make sure 12 I wasn't looking at attached copies, so I entered 13 four systems. I also had an individual who had 14 never gone to the site to go to that image and 15 look at it, and that was there. 16 I am just having difficulty 17 understanding how this could be when we are trying 18 everything we can to make sure we are not looking 19 at attached copies, and yet we are finding it. 20 MR. SILL: Sure. What we really need to 21 make is include the statement about the date that 22 is available during this week after it was taken 23 down. You would really prove that we are using a 24 fresh computer that had no possibility of having 25 crashed. That is something that would have to be 266 1 documented. 2 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I think I just said 3 that it was not that type previously, would not 4 have an attached file, correct? 5 MR. SILL: That is correct. 6 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Thank you. 7 MR. SILL: But as I said before, if 8 someone had a proxy server, or whatever, using a 9 proxy server would tell computers, or whatever, it 10 is very possible that could produce those results. 11 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: If, however, they 12 accessed the computer to an off-site system and, 13 in fact, I think there were two that were off- 14 site, and they were able to access this file, 15 doesn't that tell you the file is there? It would 16 lend evidence to believe that the file is there. 17 MR. SILL: It would suggest it, but 18 without actually taking a look at the computer and 19 without having any way to verify that, I would not 20 personally find it likely. 21 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Since you don't have 22 server logs to review, you can't really say you 23 looked at the server logs for October 25th to see 24 if there were files removed; you can't 25 unequivocally say the files were removed, can you? 267 1 MR. SILL: No, I cannot. 2 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I just offer the 3 piece of information that I printed and provided, 4 and was trying to show to Mr. Goddard on Friday, 5 which is Friday morning, when the Board had a 6 recess, when there was no discussion and we took a 7 short recess. 8 I went to the computer that was at the 9 hotel and indeed the file, accessed it and printed 10 it off. I understand that it could have been, had 11 I not known that the entire week I was able to 12 access it or others were able to access particular 13 images, wouldn't even have thought about looking 14 at it. 15 I did and I went there, I printed out 16 the page. I just used one portion of one image. 17 I showed it to, I believe, Mr. Ward and Mr. 18 Nickel, and I believe when I came out to show 19 them, I asked them if Noah was around, and I then 20 showed them what I had in my hand. 21 My goal was to try to help Mr. Goddard 22 by asking him if he had -- first, I asked him if 23 he had been able to contact the Web master to take 24 it down. It was his understanding she had taken 25 the files off. 268 1 So, the only thing I could possibly 2 conceive that is a reason for this, she had 3 changed the image page with no link to the files 4 remaining. So you couldn't link to it, but they 5 were physically there. 6 I told him he needed to tell her to 7 physically remove it from the server, and that 8 would take the files down. He said he couldn't 9 reach her by phone immediately because he didn't 10 have her phone number. That was on Friday 11 morning. 12 I said if you have the user and password 13 we can go over to the computer and we can access 14 your files here, and we can remove them for you 15 because we have the agreement that the Board was 16 getting. 17 At that point, we were about to 18 reconvene and I offered this to him and showed him 19 that we could remove it immediately. That was 20 just a point of information to the Board, because 21 I explained that I had been able to print that 22 out. That is what I was representing. 23 Are you aware of how long archival 24 materials stay there in other groups? 25 MR. SILL: I am not sure. I imagine it 269 1 is possible to extend for groups. 2 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Were you aware that 3 most of the global groups their archival goes back 4 five and six years? So that material was 5 available to some. 6 MR. SILL: Let me ask you this. 7 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Yes. 8 MR. SILL: Are the images available? 9 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: The material is 10 available, it is mentioned in the various 11 messages. If someone, for example, and let's be 12 realistic, it is not going to be someone on the 13 worldwide web that accesses this. 14 Realistically, the user of this material 15 might be somebody from within the membership. We 16 can't say that is not a possibility that we have 17 unfortunately members who may use this 18 information, who may have a little understanding 19 of what the Association is and what this 20 information can be. 21 It would be much more likely to be able 22 to benefit by it than someone trying to track down 23 a credit card number. I would totally agree with 24 you on that. But if this discussion is available, 25 someone got wind of the discussion there were 270 1 check materials posted, wouldn't you agree it is 2 not really that difficult to make some contact to 3 be able to find it if someone were in a mode to 4 find some of the information, someone they have 5 kept and provide to that? 6 MR. SILL: You may even get day to day 7 someone who obtained a copy of this document that 8 is posted on your check register.com. It is my 9 opinion that even if someone had this in their 10 hand the week of last year's conference, there was 11 still very little damage to the organization. 12 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I appreciate that 13 and I agree with most of what you said. I would 14 not go to the level that you have, but I think it 15 is probably not as high a possibility if this 16 material was presented in a text file, that would 17 be easily accessible and easily referred to. 18 I don't think we can discount that it 19 would not be possible fraudulent use at some 20 point. That was my point. I think I have one 21 other question. Maybe that is it. I want to 22 particularly make sure that you had not used the 23 server logs for removal of those files. Thank 24 you. 25 MR. SILL: Yes, ma'am. 271 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Is there anybody else 2 that has any questions for Mr. Sill at this time? 3 MR. TOFLE: I do. 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle. 5 MR. TOFLE: I have a follow-up. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: You need to turn your 7 mike on, please. Thank you. 8 MR. TOFLE: I believe Ms. Dean asked you 9 a question if identity theft occurs. 10 MR. SILL: Yes, sir. 11 MR. TOFLE: Now, you said yes, identity 12 theft does occur? 13 MR. SILL: That's correct. 14 MR. TOFLE: All right. Does it occur by 15 having the name Lelia Berry and four numbers? 16 MR. SILL: No, that is very unlikely. 17 MR. TOFLE: When you admitted that 18 identity theft does occur, how would it occur? 19 What would be a likely scenario? 20 MR. SILL: Well, the more likely 21 scenario is you move, you change addresses, and 22 your credit card statement comes to your old 23 address, and no one is living there anymore. They 24 pick it up and get your credit card number and 25 know your home address, so then they call the 272 1 credit card number and change the address to start 2 charging things on it without knowing you had a 3 new credit card. 4 MR. TOFLE: That is all I have. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Anybody else have any 6 questions for Mr. Sill? 7 I am sorry. Korhonen. 8 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Mr. Sill, in your 9 discussion with Director Goddard, did he tell you 10 that at the time that he posted this information 11 that he was aware that Lelia Berry was 25 times 12 more likely to win the lottery than somebody to 13 discover her credit card number? 14 MR. SILL: I don't believe Mr. Goddard 15 was aware of the statistics until he was 16 acquainted with me, sir. 17 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Thank you. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Any other questions? 19 Do you have anybody else, Mr. Tofle? 20 MR. TOFLE: Well, I have a couple of 21 things. I don't know if the people have some 22 questions about this postage machine. I would 23 like to ask some questions, if I can, about the 24 postage meter of Ms. McKenzie. 25 You are not saying, are you, that with 273 1 the numbers printed on the 2003 check register, I 2 could take that number and say to Pitney Bowes-- 3 somebody could take that and I could post postage 4 at my home to my own postage meter, are you? You 5 won't say that, will you? 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: I don't think that is 7 for Shirley to determine. She is the Association 8 Manager. She is not a party to whether or not 9 these things are valid. It is the Board, not her. 10 She is not part of this complaint. 11 MR. TOFLE: Let me ask it a different 12 way. You have a postage meter, right, in the 13 office, Ms. McKenzie? You have a postage meter, 14 right? 15 ASSOCIATION MANAGER McKENZIE: Yes. 16 MR. TOFLE: And with the information 17 that was on the 2003 check register, there is no 18 potential that anybody could take the postage, is 19 there? 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Wait a minute while he 21 changes the paper. 22 Are you ready to ask the question, Mr. 23 Tofle? 24 MR. TOFLE: Yes. With the information 25 that is contained on the 2003 check register, 274 1 there is no concern that anybody could take the 2 postage, is there, they could somehow access that 3 and get postage as an expense? 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: I don't believe that 5 Ms. McKenzie has experience in that. I will tell 6 you that those accounts were changed and closed 7 and were recorded in the Board minutes of last 8 year, which I am sure you have access to. 9 MR. TOFLE: Well, then, I would like to 10 make as part of the record a document from Pitney 11 Bowes showing what you would have to have in order 12 to order postage and what you would have to have 13 is a user I.D. and a password, and you would have 14 to have a postage meter. 15 Then you would press on your postage 16 meter, refill meter. It would come up with a 17 random number, which you would then have to call 18 in to Pitney Bowes with your user I.D. and with 19 your password, and with that machine to get 20 postage. 21 I would like to have that made a part of 22 the record, so there is no misunderstanding about 23 getting postage. 24 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do you have any other 25 questions, Mr. Tofle? 275 1 MR. TOFLE: Yes. I would like to direct 2 a few questions to Ms. Campbell. She has answered 3 in her questions, testified about what happened. 4 I would like to ask you a few questions. 5 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: First, you didn't 6 want me to make any comment at all, but I think I 7 can answer your questions. 8 MR. TOFLE: Well, first, I suppose you 9 will be willing to. 10 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I will be willing to 11 answer whatever you ask. Go ahead. 12 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. The questions 13 that you were asked and in your comments, were you 14 saying that you think that Mr. Goddard thought 15 that his 2003 check register remained on the Web? 16 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I believe, and I 17 said to him, that I felt he had the images -- not 18 the images -- the files had been removed by this 19 Web master. I believe he believed that. My 20 effort was trying to help show him that they were 21 still available and that I was trying to offer 22 assistance to help him remove those. 23 MR. TOFLE: Right. You asked for his 24 password and some other information? 25 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: No, I said if you 276 1 have your user and password, we can go on the 2 computer and I will show you how we can remove the 3 files, because he was concerned he couldn't reach 4 his Web master because he didn't have her 5 telephone number. 6 MR. TOFLE: Okay. He didn't have the 7 user name and password? 8 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: He didn't understand 9 the question I was asking, I don't believe. I 10 don't think he understood what I was trying to 11 offer. 12 MR. TOFLE: But you have said on 13 numerous occasions on the Internet, you genuinely 14 believe that Danielle, the Web master, did what 15 needed to be done to take down the 2005 check 16 register on that Monday? 17 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I had expressed that 18 before, and that is correct. I believed he in his 19 ability understood they were removed. If I 20 continue to believe that just in reference to his 21 Web page, telephoned me in a conversation we had 22 by phone, she said she thought she had taken the 23 files down. 24 I was trying to find some way to accept 25 that this was what she felt she had done. I was 277 1 having great difficulty trying to come up with 2 options as to why, you know, the files would still 3 be there if she truly believed she had removed 4 them. 5 She indicated in the phone conversation 6 with other Web sites, with other occasions she had 7 designed, that sometimes files remained after she 8 thought she had removed them. So the message, the 9 e-mail message you referenced, I was trying to 10 tell her I found some information about it. 11 I had some discussion, but my personal 12 experience with that, you know, I have had no 13 experience with that software. But she believed 14 she had removed it, and I accepted that she 15 believed she had. 16 MR. TOFLE: Okay. So you are not -- in 17 the questions you asked of Mr. Sill, you were not 18 trying to imply to him that Mr. Goddard or Ms. 19 Westbank did not take the steps they thought 20 necessary to take it off the Web site? 21 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I was establishing 22 that he had not examined the server logs to verify 23 they had been removed. He was accepting that they 24 provided the information and it had been removed, 25 but he had not physically had the ability to 278 1 examine the server log to verify they had been 2 removed after that date. 3 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. That is all I 4 have. 5 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Thank you. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: Anything else? 7 Strickland. 8 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I just want to 9 comment regarding that later in the week I had 10 talked to my husband in Oregon and told him that 11 apparently you could still access them, and he 12 found them for me. They were still available. 13 The front page, there was a front page 14 there saying that it was unavailable, but you 15 could get it. 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: You are saying that you 17 did not access before you got home? 18 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: No. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Reyna. 20 DIRECTOR REYNA: Mr. Sill, I am sorry, 21 you seem to indicate that Mr. Goddard was aware 22 that no damage would ensue from Pitney Bowes, that 23 he was aware that he could cause no damage by 24 putting up the Pitney Bowes number; is that what 25 you are saying? 279 1 MR. TOFLE: I am letting you say -- 2 PRESIDENT SAUM: Speak up in the 3 microphone so we can get it. 4 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. I am saying that 5 it was not his intention to cause any damage, and 6 that with his knowledge, based on his knowledge 7 which is not great of computers, but that he did 8 not think he was doing anything that would cause 9 damage. 10 DIRECTOR REYNA: So, you are saying that 11 his ignorance was an excuse in that situation? 12 MR. TOFLE: Well, you should be a 13 lawyer, because that is a really good question. 14 No, he is not. To answer your question, it was 15 not his intention to do any harm to the 16 organization. That was not why he did this. 17 DIRECTOR REYNA: I would like to comment 18 by the same manner that this very technical 19 information, he neither researched it or knew it, 20 but at the same time you seem to imply that Ms. 21 Berry and others on this complaint, and ADGA 22 should have been aware enough not to worry about 23 the damage to our Association. 24 We had every reason in the world to feel 25 that, or we would not have taken the steps that we 280 1 took. So, if he was ignorant that -- if he was 2 not aware that he was causing no damage, by the 3 same token we had no way of knowing on instant 4 notice that no damage was going to happen. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle, do you have 6 anybody else you want to call? 7 MR. TOFLE: No. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: You are done. Okay. I 9 guess nobody else has any other witnesses to call, 10 so we are open for questions and discussion. 11 Rucker. 12 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Are we provided with 13 the Missouri Revised Statutes on non-profit 14 corporation law, and on the records section, is 15 this what you are going for justifying posting it 16 to the Web? 17 MR. TOFLE: I guess what I am saying is 18 that if you take the Missouri Statutes, which 19 provide certain information, it should be made 20 available, and if you take the federal law 21 involving corporations which provide certain 22 information that is available to the public in 23 general, and if you take the ADGA Constitution 24 that provides that the account of the 25 organization's audit is provided to the members 281 1 and take together with that what actually was 2 posted, and I think this was, and I asked one of 3 the members who actually signed the complaint 4 about the difference between the 2003 complaint 5 and the earlier complaint, where the earlier 6 complaint may have had more information like the 7 complete credit care information. 8 Mr. Goddard had the impression it was 9 cleaned up. If you take them altogether, I think 10 he had a pretty good idea that there was not that 11 much, or if anything there, that he could consider 12 confidential. That is my point. 13 If he had taken it in context of the 14 law, the Constitution and what was actually on the 15 check register -- 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle, I think 17 Rucker's question is that document you provided 18 for us, are you saying that that statute provides 19 your check register available to the public? I 20 think that is Mr. Rucker's question. 21 MR. TOFLE: I think I answered that, no. 22 PRESIDENT SAUM: I don't believe you 23 did. 24 MR. TOFLE: Okay. I am sorry. 25 PRESIDENT SAUM: It is a yes or no 282 1 answer. 2 MR. TOFLE: You are also good at asking 3 questions. The answer, then, is no, that in and 4 of itself is not the sole justification. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. 6 DIRECTOR RUCKER: I appreciate that. He 7 would be a good attorney because he is good at 8 avoiding questions. 9 MR. TOFLE: Thank you. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: Morris. 11 DIRECTOR MORRIS: Did you review with an 12 attorney before you did this, these statutes, the 13 ADGA Constitution, or did you take this upon 14 yourself to do it? 15 DIRECTOR GODDARD: To do what? 16 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do the check register. 17 DIRECTOR GODDARD: No, I didn't consult 18 with an attorney that time. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Strickland. 20 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I would like to 21 address this question to try to clarify for me why 22 you asked for the account, the manufacturer by 23 account record, and it was sent addressed to him 24 and it was stamped confidential, and he did not 25 believe that pertained to him. 283 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Goddard, she asked you 2 a question. 3 DIRECTOR GODDARD: What was the 4 question? 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: She is asking you on 6 the confidentiality statement that was stamped on 7 the front that you received, why it did not apply 8 to you or you felt that it did not apply to you? 9 DIRECTOR GODDARD: I testified to that 10 earlier today. 11 PRESIDENT SAUM: Could you give us the 12 answer again? 13 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Okay, one more time. 14 It says if you are not the intended recipient, and 15 I believed that the wording meant to me that if 16 you received it in error by mistake, or you were 17 not the recipient, and I believe under that I am 18 an intended recipient as well as the membership in 19 District V. 20 MR. TOFLE: Can I say one thing? 21 PRESIDENT SAUM: Strickland, do you want 22 to follow up, and then we will get to you, Mr. 23 Tofle. 24 DIRECTOR STRICKLAND: I believe the 25 confidentiality statements says, and I am looking 284 1 at it, "This report contains information that is 2 privileged and confidential and solely for the use 3 of the intended recipient." 4 It is not plural, it was intended for 5 Noah, and it is confidential and privileged to be 6 the person delivered to and not to anybody but Mr. 7 Goddard. I don't understand. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Mr. Tofle. 9 MR. TOFLE: Well, I just wanted to say, 10 I notice that on several questions you asked Mr. 11 Goddard, he asked you to repeat the question. I 12 would just have to say this. I know he has 13 diabetes, and it has been a long day for him. I 14 hope you will consider that. 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. Are there 16 any other comments? 17 Altheide. 18 DIRECTOR ALTHEIDE: I know that claims 19 were made about the unlikelihood of being able to 20 use the credit card numbers that were provided. 21 Are you saying that identity theft only occurs in 22 that manner, or can it occur when you know the 23 name of the company, the secretary-treasurer, the 24 home office, and 30 or 40 credit references; it 25 cannot occur? There are at least 30 or 40 credit 285 1 references, companies that we do business with, 2 that were posted on the Web. 3 One other point was that while Mr. 4 Goddard has said he only posted the information on 5 his list, I am not a member of his list and I saw 6 the information disseminated to other lists, and 7 that is how I became aware of the site. 8 PRESIDENT SAUM: Campbell. 9 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: I have to think for 10 a minute. Mr. Tofle, I have a question. The 11 phrase we use in our Constitution in determining 12 complaints and conduct detrimental to the 13 Association, in your opinion, if there is 14 financial harm, is that conduct that is 15 detrimental to the Association? 16 MR. TOFLE: Well, no. 17 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Thank you. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Lawson. 19 DIRECTOR LAWSON: My question speaks to 20 the information that is on the check register, and 21 I am mostly just curious to understand why you 22 think that knowing what a check, who a check is 23 written to, explains why that check was written or 24 what it was written for, and how that would help 25 you find out further constituents, how ADGA could 286 1 save money? 2 DIRECTOR GODDARD: Where the money goes 3 and why, I believe there is -- okay. 4 PRESIDENT SAUM: We don't seem to have a 5 lot of other questions, and it seems like we are 6 getting to the end of the discovery phase of the 7 hearing. We have had some witnesses called and 8 our attorney would like to make a couple of 9 comments further. 10 Would you like to make some, Mr. Tofle? 11 MR. TOFLE: Yes, I would like that. 12 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. Why don't you 13 give him the microphone. 14 MR. TOFLE: Do you want me to go first? 15 PRESIDENT SAUM: Sure. 16 MR. TOFLE: Well, I would say that just 17 on a couple of technical issues that this 18 complaint is ADGA's complaint, and that the people 19 who filed this complaint all said they were not 20 filing on behalf of ADGA, but filing on behalf of 21 themselves. 22 I would say on behalf of themselves, 23 they didn't suffer any damage or harm. The only 24 damage or harm that they are claiming would be to 25 ADGA. To that, I guess the harm would be that 287 1 ADGA chose to change some accounts. 2 I don't think that Mr. Goddard 3 intentionally published the check register to 4 intentionally and maliciously harm ADGA. I guess 5 I am confused to think that, but I don't think 6 that is what it is. 7 I think you have heard what he said, and 8 that was not his purpose in doing it. I think Mr. 9 Goddard, and apparently it was not communicated, 10 obviously not communicated, but that he did what 11 was asked of him by the staff, by the EC, by the 12 Board, and that he did what was necessary to take 13 this down. 14 I notice in the complaint that it 15 assumes that he didn't care and led them to the 16 conclusion that he maliciously and intentionally 17 was trying to bring damage to ADGA. I don't think 18 that is the case. 19 He was just doing what he was trying to 20 do, which was to share information with the 21 members in his District. I think that in terms of 22 actual or potential harm, that the people may hear 23 that is out there, I don't think there is any. 24 I think that a lot of the information, 25 or I guess all of the information that was 288 1 published is, one way or another, information that 2 is entitled to be published, and I said under 3 federal and state law and the ADGA Constitution, 4 they would be able to, members and Directors 5 consider the potential that someone else told 6 someone else or something like that, that is 7 possible. 8 I think that probably there is no 9 indication that anybody other than the Director 10 and members really sought this information and 11 made any use of this information. I think that 12 Mr. Goddard felt he was working in the best 13 interest of ADGA. 14 I think he felt he was sharing 15 information with the members of the District. 16 Other people don't think that. I think that there 17 is finally two approaches to being in office, one 18 of which is that if you are elected, you are the 19 one that would be entitled to have the right to 20 make the decision and consider the others. 21 The other is that you share the 22 information that you get, ideas from other people, 23 and you consider that and take that is the process 24 in making a decision. That is a different 25 approach to one of leadership. 289 1 I think also that there was an exchange 2 of letters, which I just heard, and I concluded 3 that when the attorneys were authorized to work 4 out an agreement they did work out an agreement. 5 I think that ADGA is bound by that agreement. 6 I don't think that they can just say 7 that we won't be bound by this, we are not going 8 to denounce the rest of it. If they are bound by 9 any of it, I think you acknowledge that you are in 10 agreement made by the attorneys on behalf of ADGA. 11 I think that the result is the complaint 12 needs to be dismissed or dropped. Anyway, for 13 these reasons, I think that the complaint should 14 be dismissed or the action should be dropped. I 15 don't think Mr. Goddard had any intention of 16 harming the organization. I don't think the 17 organization was harmed. I think that the 18 potential for harm was very small. Thank you. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Thank you. 20 Bryan had her hand up. 21 DIRECTOR BRYAN: Maybe Mr. Tofle does 22 not understand, but each of these people that 23 testified to us originally stated that they were 24 bringing the complaint as members of ADGA, and to 25 me ADGA is the members. They were following the 290 1 outline complaint procedure. 2 I think that greater sin is that ADGA 3 was harmed, because if by no other ways, the fact 4 that we have sat here, for the hours we have sat 5 here this afternoon and dealt with this, and 6 saying nothing about what we dealt with last year, 7 when we have not been able to do the duly- 8 authorized business of the Association is harmful 9 to all of our members. 10 PRESIDENT SAUM: All right. 11 John Ruth is going to make some final 12 statements. 13 MR. RUTH: The hour is growing late. I 14 will try to be short. I just want to try to focus 15 the Board on the decision that it has to make. A 16 Director under the applicable law, Bylaws and 17 Constitution of this organization, owes a duty of 18 loyalty to the Association. 19 The duty of loyalty requires a Director 20 to put the interest of the Association above the 21 interest that he may have, or himself or herself. 22 There is a clearly confidential stamp on the 23 information that was posted on the Internet. 24 You as the fact-finder, you have to 25 determine the credibility of the witnesses and 291 1 whether you believe anybody, who you are going to 2 believe and what part of any testimony. That is 3 your lot as the fact-finder today. 4 One of those duties is to not share 5 information beyond the scope of what is permitted. 6 It is clear Mr. Tofle has provided the statute 7 that a member who wants this type of information 8 must make a request to the Association. 9 There is a threshold that must be 10 satisfied before a member is entitled to any 11 information. That threshold is an identification 12 of the documents that are desired and an 13 expression of the purpose for which those 14 documents are wanted. 15 Before those documents are produced, 16 you, as the Association, the Association has the 17 obligation to determine if there is an evil motive 18 or improper purpose for the request. Until that 19 threshold is met, no member is entitled to those 20 documents. 21 No one of you as Directors is entitled 22 to bypass that and make the decision as to who 23 should receive confidential financial information. 24 The check register, what Mr. Tofle is referring to 25 is the 990 that is available to the public. 292 1 There is nowhere in this that requires 2 each and every check to be listed on a Form 990. 3 This information is not generally available to the 4 public. That issue, the duty of loyalty, there is 5 not even a determination made as to whether there 6 is any injury. 7 That is a whole set of questions. I 8 want you to be aware of that. This is really a 9 two-part analysis here. Was there a breech of 10 duty of loyalty owed as a Director? If so, was 11 that conduct detrimental? 12 Number two, is the posting of this 13 information harmful, financially or otherwise, to 14 the Association? So with that conduct, I think 15 you have that information before you to be able to 16 deliberate and make the decision on that. I thank 17 you for your patience and your attention here 18 today. 19 PRESIDENT SAUM: Do we have any 20 discussion, any motions to come forward, any 21 resolutions? 22 Korhonen. 23 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Sir, can you give us 24 any guidance as we sit here, and I have got to 25 equate it to my old background basically as a 293 1 jury? There are two standards of proof that are 2 required to be met in a legal system, either in 3 the criminal system, which is proof beyond a 4 reasonable doubt, or the civil system, which is 5 preponderance of the evidence. Do we have any 6 guidance from Missouri law as to which standard we 7 should hold this point to? 8 MR. RUTH: These type of proceedings, 9 and I think Marvin will agree with me, is a 10 preponderance of the evidence. 11 DIRECTOR KORHONEN: Thank you. 12 MR. RUTH: In any case, if you know what 13 that means, I would like for you to explain it to 14 me. 15 DIRECTOR REYNA: I move that we find Mr. 16 Goddard's conduct detrimental to the Association. 17 DIRECTOR MORRIS: I second it. 18 PRESIDENT SAUM: Any action or just the 19 statement? 20 DIRECTOR REYNA: Well, we can follow our 21 own guidelines. I think that we can do that, can 22 we not? 23 PRESIDENT SAUM: I think that needs to 24 be part of your motion, if you want to take that 25 action. If you do, just state it in your motion. 294 1 DIRECTOR REYNA: I move that we find Mr. 2 Goddard's conduct detrimental and requires 3 expulsion. 4 DIRECTOR MORRIS: I will second it. 5 PRESIDENT SAUM: The motion was seconded 6 by Morris. Do we have any discussion on the 7 motion? I am sorry. We are clarifying. Is that 8 expulsion as a member or Director? That would 9 affect the directorship, but it is an individual 10 member, the expulsion; is that correct? 11 DIRECTOR REYNA: That he will not be a 12 member of the Association. 13 PRESIDENT SAUM: Okay. A point of 14 clarification, and then Joan Rowe. 15 DIRECTOR CAMPBELL: Just a point of 16 clarification. I was asking advice from Mr. Ruth. 17 If the Board by two-thirds does not accept this 18 motion, are there other disciplinary actions that 19 may be accepted? 20 PRESIDENT SAUM: Joan Dean Rowe. 21 DIRECTOR ROWE: I am just unclear, 22 because I was assuming that this might come in two 23 separate motions, one, that it is detrimental to 24 the Association, and then a second to find if it 25 was expulsion. 295 1 PRESIDENT SAUM: Will you accept that? 2 DIRECTOR REYNA: Yes. 3 PRESIDENT SAUM: We will divide them. 4 Is it acceptable with the seconder? 5 DIRECTOR MORRIS: Yes. 6 PRESIDENT SAUM: The first motion would 7 be that we find Noah Goddard's conduct detrimental 8 to the Association; is that correct? Any 9 discussion on that? I have had several people to 10 ask me for a roll-call vote. I will ask for a 11 hand count. I have had many people ask for a roll 12 call. 13 DIRECTOR RUCKER: Try a hand count. 14 PRESIDENT SAUM: All those in favor of 15 the motion to find Noah Goddard guilty of conduct 16 detrimental to the Association will say "aye"; 17 those opposed "no". Goddard voted no. Backus 18 voted no. Wait just a minute. Any abstentions? 19 Abstentions are Kempe and Cassette. All right. 20 The motion carried. 21 DIRECTOR RUCKER: A point of order. 22 Since we are following the 2004 Complaint 23 Guide